Prarie Dunes KS - Why isn't there more discussion about the architecture there?

[Ed Oden]

Mark,

I thought they flattened out the greens at Dornick Hills for the membership.  I have not played there but heard that it is a bit different from what Maxwell intended. I haven't played there because of this.  Maybe the info is incorrect?

Thanks for the add'l ideas down there.

Jim, I don't want to hijack this thread, but while the greens at Dornick Hills may not be exactly what Maxwell designed, they are by no means flat.  The course itself has some really interesting stuff that is worthwhile for anyone interested in GCA generally or Maxwell specifically... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49744.0.html

You can see photos of the course here if you want... http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157626948414699/

[Brandon Urban]

Prairie Dunes is one of my favorite places in the world. I am just a 2 1/2 hour drive away and will continually try to figure out how to get the kids out of college quicker so I can figure out a way to join. (the youngest is 2, so I might be screwed)

I think the course is difficult but not overly penal. You have to spray it pretty wide to get to the gunch on alot of the holes. I really think 3, 13, 14 and maybe 17 are the only holes you really can't push or pull one too far.

I just think the place is nothing but fun. The approach shots are pretty exciting and the short game is a blast with all of the short grass around the greens and the humps and roll on them. And the par 3's... damn are they spectacular. 2 is probably one of my favorite holes in the world. Just something about the way it sits into the side of that dune. One of the few holes I have played where I would rather be in the 12 foot deep front bunker instead of just a few feet long. Pin back left = good freaking luck.

Besides the great golf course, the place is just so laid back. The few times I have been lucky enough to visit, my friends and I have been treated nothing short of a member for the day. It's just a place I would love to play every day. That's the best compliment I could pay any club.

[David Kelly]

The gunch is in play on virtually every shot.  And unlike other courses of similar ilk, it is entirely unplayable.  If you hit your ball in the gunch, it is lost.  There is no reason to bother looking for it.  With windy conditions being the norm, you can play very well and still lose a half dozen balls per round.  For that reason alone, I place Prairie Dunes a shade below the best courses I have played.  If the gunch were thinned just enough to offer some minimal chance of the occasional recovery, I would gladly bump it up to that class. 

I would guess that I find 30-40% of my balls in the gunch although they are not always playable.

There are some interesting pictures of Prairie Dunes from the 1960s and 1970s that show the gunch mowed way down in spots.  In Dan Jenkins' The Best 18 Holes in America the pictures of the 8th hole show the huge area of gunch between the 8th and 9th holes mowed down to shoetop height with no plum thickets or yuccas around.  There is a picture of the 9th hole from Great Courses of the World by William H. Davis and Golf Digest that shows the same thing.  There were also a lot more small cottonwood trees around the course then.  At some point after that period the club made the decision to let the native grow more naturally.  They also got rid of most of the cottonwood trees and still eradicate any small trees that start to grow in the gunch.

[Shane Wright]

Ian, I will reiterate, what an excellent post.  You brought back many vivid memories and exciting details from a course that I believe should always be a top 25 in the world.  Prairie Dunes is the best combination of fun and difficulty of any course I have ever played.  The fact that it is not surrounded by numerous other world class courses hopefully gives any visitor the chance become intimate with the details of the course thru multiple plays instead of racing around to get in as many courses as possible.  I have certainly been guilty of racing to see as much as possible, but Prairie Dunes is one to take in as much as possible and cherish.

[Jim Eder]

Ed,

Thank you for the information on Dornick Hills and the links.  The GCA link is fantastic and very helpful.  I'll take a look at the pics on flicker soon.  Thanks for setting me straight on why I need to play it. Much appreciated.

[JC Urbina]

Jim Eder,

I am on record for touting Prairie Dunes as one of my top 5 golf courses to see and play.  Of course I am a Maxwell fan and the simplicity of this 9/18 hole golf course a true test of golf.  I always thought that the atmosphere of the club and the ease of walking made this a must stop for people in search of interesting greens, native looking bunkers and undulating fairways.

 I learned a lot from my early years of visiting this club, my first visit was in the middle 80's, I use to go to Firethorn ( Dick Youngscap's other golf course) and loop back through Kansas to get back to Denver  I recommend it to anyone who asks.  Need to get back there soon.

[Jim Eder]

Jim,

That is very high praise from someone I respect greatly. Thanks.

[Jim Eder]

Ed,

That flicker tour of Dornick Hills is just terrific!!  Thank you.  That 16th hole is truly amazing. I really need to play there next time.  Thanks

It looks like they cleared the course for you!! 

[JWinick]

While Prairie Dunes is a great golf course, its reputation exceeds its merit.    I can't figure out how it could be ranked in the top-25 worldwide.  Perhaps, the Kansas/Missouri/Oklahoma/Iowa rater contingent is sticking up for their own.   After the 12th hole, the quality of the architecture and golf course drops precipitiously.   Moreover, the unplayable gunsh is effectively a water hazard, which makes a Prairie golf course feel much tighter than it should.

And please, stop calling Prairie Dunes a Perry Maxwell golf course.   He did nine holes, his son did the rest.   While I wouldn't want to give nepotism a bad name, I don't think architectural skill is inherited.      

It is a solid facility, but this seems like a case where if you drive 5 hours out of the way to go somewhere, its hard to admit that it didn't live up to its hype.   I have also talked to other people who share my thoughts, but don't have the courage to share them publically.   Comparing it to Crystal Downs is a stretch.

[David Kelly]

I have also talked to other people who share my thoughts, but don't have the courage to share them publically.

Declaring that you have issues with the architecture of a golf course on an online discussion board may be the weakest definition of courage I have ever read or heard.

[Terry Lavin]

While Prairie Dunes is a great golf course, its reputation exceeds its merit.    I can't figure out how it could be ranked in the top-25 worldwide.  Perhaps, the Kansas/Missouri/Oklahoma/Iowa rater contingent is sticking up for their own.   After the 12th hole, the quality of the architecture and golf course drops precipitiously.   Moreover, the unplayable gunsh is effectively a water hazard, which makes a Prairie golf course feel much tighter than it should.

And please, stop calling Prairie Dunes a Perry Maxwell golf course.   He did nine holes, his son did the rest.   While I wouldn't want to give nepotism a bad name, I don't think architectural skill is inherited.      

It is a solid facility, but this seems like a case where if you drive 5 hours out of the way to go somewhere, its hard to admit that it didn't live up to its hype.   I have also talked to other people who share my thoughts, but don't have the courage to share them publically.   Comparing it to Crystal Downs is a stretch.

Duly noted opinion of the not-so-vocal minority.  In your honor, I'll hit one into the gunsch and spill some beer at the bar.

[Shane Wright]

JWinick, you are telling me that #13 and #17 aren't good holes.  #17 always pops in my head of favorite par 5's.  #13 is one of the better stategic holes on the course with an awesome green complex and setting.

[Ian Andrew]

I keep reading critical comments of the native prairie.

Sometimes you have to take a bigger picture look at where you are playing. I see a golf course that has embraced the surrounding landscape and included it as part of the experience. I see a course that melds in as quietly as anything I’ve ever seen blurring the lines between playing fields and the land beyond. What’s fascinating is the club has spent a great deal of effort recovering the native prairie and that at one time much of the native grasses and plants were lost. To me this property is all about sustainability and natural ecosystems. Prairie Dunes is special from the architecture through to the setting. If I was ever looking for an American example of “sense of place” this would be the one.

… and on the subject of losing balls ….

I played with three great players the second day. The one thing that struck me was their unwillingness to "accept" what was offered rather than "take" what they felt they should have. It cost each at least one ball. For most of the day I played them even because I was the one player willing to lay-up or chip on. There is plenty of room to play, unless of course you are taking aggressive lines that bring the gunch into play.

[Craig Van Egmond]

JWinick,
        I don't know how many times you have played PD, but I have been fortunate to play it about 20 times and I look forward to it every time. I think holes 13, 14, 16 and 17 are fantastic and 17 is one of my favorite par 5's of all time.  The course is worth it for the greens alone.  You are very fortunate individual to have played 25 or more courses that you think are better than PD. 



         

[JWinick]

The finish from 13 on is just not as strong as the rest of the golf course.    After a really strong front nine and a solid start to the back, the ending was a big of a downer.   17 does not offer enough interest on the second shot to be a great par-5.    There doesn't seem to be much penalty to go for the green in two. 

Some movie critics believe you should watch a movie without hearing any other reviews, hype, or even seeing the previews.   My comments are based partly on whether it measures up to its acclaim.     

JWinick, you are telling me that #13 and #17 aren't good holes.  #17 always pops in my head of favorite par 5's.  #13 is one of the better stategic holes on the course with an awesome green complex and setting.

[Craig Van Egmond]

The finish from 13 on is just not as strong as the rest of the golf course.    After a really strong front nine and a solid start to the back, the ending was a big of a downer.   17 does not offer enough interest on the second shot to be a great par-5.    There doesn't seem to be much penalty to go for the green in two. 

I won't argue that the last 6 holes aren't as good as the rest of the course, but you better have a pretty good short game if you can't stick the 2nd smallest green on the course from 200 yards. Wicked little green that one, I have seen more bogeys than birdies on that one.

[Sean Leary]

I can understand why someone might think it is overrated, to each their own. It certainly has flaws. But 13 is a very interesting choice of where to think it goes downhill since 12 is to me probably the weakest hole on the course. Jwinick, just curious how many rounds you played and did you get the normal wind?

[Adam Clayman]

While Prairie Dunes is a great golf course, its reputation exceeds its merit.    I can't figure out how it could be ranked in the top-25 worldwide.  Perhaps, the Kansas/Missouri/Oklahoma/Iowa rater contingent is sticking up for their own.  

JW, Since you mentioned raters, would you happen to be one? Not trying to be flippant, I just had never heard of this contingent before.

It's possible, if one rates, based on a hole by hole, check off your list method, one could miss the whole.

PD is a course that grows and grows on ones soul, each and every time they play it. IMO, it's figuring out the greens that provides the greatest satisfaction.

[Terry Lavin]

I agree that the stretch of 13-16 is not the best on the property. Having said that, 17 is one of the greatest holes in America and 18 is a great finishing hole. so that leaves us with four holes. Two of them are solid but not great (chute and cottonwood), so where's the plaint?  It's a fabulous course, a real original and a place that is true to itself. Throw in the fact that a later nine was incorporated by a different architect decades later and you have an American golf architecture story that is unparalleled. Maybe that keeps it higher than a cold analysis might allow, but there's nothing cold about Prairie Dunes. Nothing. It's all hot.

[Ed Oden]

Ian, thanks for another great post.  It really helps provide some understanding with respect to the native areas and Prairie Dunes' approach to their maintenance.  With that perspective, I have no qualms with the club's approach and in many ways find it admirable.  However, that does not necessarily mean that I can't take that meld into account when comparing Prairie Dunes' relative standing to other truly elite courses.  Such comparisons inevitably involve splitting hairs and I do not think it is inappropriate to view the largely unplayability of the gunch at Prairie Dunes less favorably than more playable natural areas at, for example, Sand Hills, even though I am fully accepting of why the maintenance at Prairie Dunes is as presented.  For that reason, I have Prairie Dunes just a shade below the absolute very best courses I have seen.  That's no shame and shouldn't be taken as a knock on the course since I am a huge fan, look forward to returning and am envious of those fortunate enough to play there regularly.

[JWinick]

I can understand why someone might think it is overrated, to each their own. It certainly has flaws. But 13 is a very interesting choice of where to think it goes downhill since 12 is to me probably the weakest hole on the course. Jwinick, just curious how many rounds you played and did you get the normal wind?

I played once.  I don't doubt it will grow on me, but three things will not change no matter how many times I play:   1) the relative weakness of the last stretch. 2) the gonch and 3) it's a little too windy for taste.  Am i being too critical?  Not if I am comparing it to other top 25 courses.

[Shane Wright]

Jwinick, I'm ok with your opinion of PD,although I disagree, but if you think the recovery from greenside of #17 isnt difficult, then where can I pay to watch you play golf.

[ed_getka]

J Winick,
     I am just dying to know what your favorite courses are. Please give us 5 and why you like them so much.

[Terry Lavin]

Once?

[Brad Tufts]

I would say that PD's strengths are 1-5, 8-11, and 15-18.

6 and 7 are breather holes, and give you a chance to get a shot back that was mashed out of you on 5.

12-13-14 are beautiful golf holes, but if there has to be a weak link, it is there.

I like the finish.  The 15th green is elusive out of the shoot of trees.  16 is a subtle challenger that plays longer than the yardage, and requires a well-placed tee-ball.  17 is one of the most fun holes at PD....sure it's reachable but rarely is the player left with a simple pitch.

18 makes me weaker in the knees than any 390-yard hole in existence.  It's merely a hybrid and a PW (in the wind I saw for all 5 rounds one weekend), but you stare at the ball until it comes to a complete stop on both shots.

GREAT course.