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Sam Morrow

Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2012, 10:25:16 PM »
Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.

Lawrence



I would agree for the most part.

BHoover

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2012, 10:26:38 PM »
Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.

Lawrence



I tend to agree. The more expensive caddie fees get, the less likely folks are to take a caddie. That's a sad truth.

Lawrence Largent

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2012, 10:36:33 PM »
I'm not a cheap scape by any means.  I'm a fairly decent player and with my experience most caddies are trained for 10 to 15 handicap.  They always leave my putter head cover off and most of the time my woods.  What really makes me upset is that most of the time the better you are to the caddies the poorer the service.  Plainfield caddies are some of the best I've had and the Olde Farm being the worst.  Golf is getting more and more expensive and sadly this just adds to it.  I have a club in my area that I would like to join but forecaddies are mandatory and you're not allowed to carry clubs at anytime.  Most clubs now want you to give 80 to 100 a round.  Now thats 20 to 25 dollars a hour on a four hour round.  My wife has a teaching degree and spent 5 years in college and doesn't make that much.  I find it hard to pay someone that cleans my ball and gives me bad advise all day more than her.

Lawrence

Mac Plumart

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2012, 11:46:34 PM »
I love going out with caddies.  You usually end up with two extremes...1) you establish a relationship with the guy and become friends, 2) the caddy is so bad that you get great stories to share for eternity.

Examples...

East Lake caddies...I have the same guys I go out with time and time again.  I love them.  And look forward to hearing about what they've been up to in life.  Marriages, engagements, kids, etc.  It is like being with old friends.

Bandon caddy...At the end of day 2 (or 3 I can't remember)...my legs hurt so bad I can barely walk, let alone swing the club.  I am in the middle of a match with fellow golfers and I ask the caddy to be my partner and we will play alternate shot and keep the match going.  He was a great player, I was sucking wind, we made a good team...fun!

Ballyneal...A certain pavement dude from the mid-west has this caddy that is epic.  One particular instance of this caddy's skill and work ethic goes like this: Pavement dude slices a shot off the tee just a bit and it lands in the long-grass/rough/gunchy stuff...caddy and golfer walk to the area where the ball came down.  Caddy stands and does nothing while the pavement dude/golfer searches through the rough looking for his ball.  Pavement dude looks over at the caddy and says, "Is this the first time one of your golfers ever missed a fairway?" 

Quite funny.  But not as funny as another caddy/golfer pair at the same place...golfer slices his shot way into the gunch.  Golfer asks caddy, "Did you see where that one landed?"  Caddy, "Hell no." 

Hilarious!!!  I'm sure the golfer (who is a GCA.com member) was thinking, "Thanks for the help on that one, pal."
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2012, 12:08:27 AM »
Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.


Lawrence,

For the number of times I take a caddie per year, it doesn't overly bother me as long as the caddie is decent.  It is frustrating to pay $100 for bad service, of course.

Slightly OT (and I've said it before), but I've never entirely understood courses that have mandatory caddies for members.  I recognize that members need to support the caddie program if they want one, and golfers choose where they want to join, but for those golfers without an unlimited budget, it would be a massive additional expense.  In a year-round climate, based on 2-3 rounds per week on one's home course, that's about 100 rounds per year.  At $100 per round, that's $10,000!

My caddie at East Lake said to me: "can you believe some members here are so cheap they actually wait to play after 2:00 pm [when caddies are not mandatory]".  Darned right I believe it.

Also, maybe caddies should be paid per hour?  I often play on my own, in the first tee-time of the day in about 2 hours.  At one well-known club I was set for the first time of the day and the member the pro had scheduled for me to play with cancelled that morning.  No caddie got there early enough so my caddie was a short-order cook who had played the course a handful of times.  We played in just under 2.5 hours -- and for $120 caddie fee (incl. tip), I felt ripped-off (though the guy was as nice as could be).

Sam Morrow

Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2012, 12:16:00 AM »
Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.


Lawrence,

For the number of times I take a caddie per year, it doesn't overly bother me as long as the caddie is decent.  It is frustrating to pay $100 for bad service, of course.

Slightly OT (and I've said it before), but I've never entirely understood courses that have mandatory caddies for members.  I recognize that members need to support the caddie program if they want one, and golfers choose where they want to join, but for those golfers without an unlimited budget, it would be a massive additional expense.  In a year-round climate, based on 2-3 rounds per week on one's home course, that's about 100 rounds per year.  At $100 per round, that's $10,000!

My caddie at East Lake said to me: "can you believe some members here are so cheap they actually wait to play after 2:00 pm [when caddies are not mandatory]".  Darned right I believe it.

Also, maybe caddies should be paid per hour?  I often play on my own, in the first tee-time of the day in about 2 hours.  At one well-known club I was set for the first time of the day and the member the pro had scheduled for me to play with cancelled that morning.  No caddie got there early enough so my caddie was a short-order cook who had played the course a handful of times.  We played in just under 2.5 hours -- and for $120 caddie fee (incl. tip), I felt ripped-off (though the guy was as nice as could be).

I wouldn't join a club that told me I had to take a caddy.

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2012, 12:21:18 AM »
Mac,
I remember once caddying on Carnoustie and the 16th. hole named Barry Burn was playing into a stiff breeze as is its wont.
Now at a good 220 yards off the front of the tee it is a long par3 in anybody's book. The player in question (not my man!) had been
testing his caddy's patience (a wee, gnarled, wizened chap wearing a flat-cap and an overcoat....I'm not kidding he was a caricature of the old-school Scottish caddy if ever there was one). The player continuously under-clubbed against the sage advice of of this caddy.
Anyway the player asked his caddy if he  thought a 5-iron would be the club. After a few moments thought the caddy answered "Why yes......providing you hit it often enough!"

Thank God there was only 2 holes left to play as containing our mirth was big ask!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

John Kirk

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2012, 12:53:23 AM »
Remember that a caddie who loops 300 rounds per year at an average $80 per round makes $24,000 per year.  Food, gas and groceries, and maybe a girl friend if he's handsome and nice.

Sean_A

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2012, 02:02:42 AM »
Kris

I don't have a disrespect for the caddie/player dynamic.  I am just not interesting in paying much for it and there is no way I would join a club which required caddies.  I will go to my grave with the idea that a caddie should be a youngster looking for spending money, not someone trying to feed a family.  Indeed, if your idea of taking caddies a load of the time is to have any truck, it is only my idea of the caddie which has any chance to work.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2012, 05:55:49 AM »
If it was addressed in the previous 2.5 pages of this thread and you take offense at my review, thanks anyway.

We are discussing two disparate caddie programs, right? The first is the one that primarily employs teenagers and college kids, while the second employs career caddies.

The former should be a place where youngsters learn much more than they earn, where the caddie-master serves as a de-facto guide through the murky waters of customer relations, service industry and the basics of holding down a job. These 'yout' earn some cash and supplement their wages with golf course access (usually on Mondays.)

The later are fellows who have you convinced (and they may be correct) that golf is better when you have a bag man. I suppose that if golf is to be a break from reality, an entry into a fantasy land, it might as well be with a "brah" who clubs me, strokes my ego, explains the nuances of the course and encourages me toward a finer score. I love that type of service but, like many, cannot afford it more than 1x-2x a year.

I'm a big supporter of the former and recognize the need (although not the bullying/encouragement sometimes involved) in the latter, program model.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2012, 08:07:09 AM »
My favourite time to get a caddy is when I'm on my own - then it's great to have the company.




Paying someone to carry my bag and chat to me while I play alone stikes me as too sad for words...





...I'd be inclined to tell him to go and get his clubs so we could make a game of it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 08:09:15 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2012, 08:33:51 AM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?

Jim Nelson

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2012, 09:34:01 AM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?
I belong to two clubs with caddies, so I have had a lot of experience with all types.  The best can really enhance the experience, the worst are an annoyance.  I think many people who do not regularly use caddies can be intimidated, but the best thing to do is set the ground rules.  Thanks, but I'll read my own putts unless I ask for help.  You can help by getting me to focus on a target.  On a new course, it helps to have a caddy give you an idea of course strategy.  And the biggest no no is giving swing advise.  Not even if the player asks.  Oh, and please don't take my clubs and work on your swing.

But as to your question, the best experience I've ever had was at Royal Portrush.  My caddy was named George and he and his buddy were out with our group.  George was probably in his 70's and recently had to give up golf because of a bad back.  He was a gentleman above all, understood the game and gently tried to get me to play the game.  For a period of about 6 holes ending the front nine (I'm sure my friends would say it was more than that) I was awful.  I began to wallow in self pity and finally turned to George and whined a bit, complaining about my game and how i get so frustrated at times.  George turned and stated in that wonderful Irish brogue, "Laddie, I'd be happy to trade places with you."  i paused for a moment and replied, "George, how right you are."  From that moment on, I had a wonder time, playing much better while counting my blessings. I remember George every time I start to go the that dark place some of us golfers all to easily go.  Thanks George.  I hope you are still out there enjoying a pint with your mates. 
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2012, 09:35:48 AM »
Sean,

Where in our exchange did I suggest YOU did not have a respect for caddies? In no way did I mean to imply that. As to the role of a caddie just being a job for youngsters, there are different levels of caddie experiences. The underlying constant should be that the caddie, young OR older, should have a decent command of what is required to do the job, hustle and bring a friendly manner to the day. In a destination or elite course setting, the QUALITY caddie can add a great deal to that experience.

Duncan,

Brian is speaking to the ADDITIONAL benefits the caddie contributes beyond providing the quality service 'round the course. Though you've obviously had little or no experience with QUALITY caddies, they are often some of the best company you could have on a course....or anywhere else for that matter. Remember, some of these "caddies" have become the greatest players of their era, or OH MY GOD NO...even become members of the clubs they once caddied at, after becoming successful in other professions. What, were they subhuman prior to attaining a higher social standing?





From my experience, the MELDING of age groups in the caddie program makes for the strongest staff. There is NO substitute for the awesome mentoring a caring, quality veteran caddie can impart to younger caddies while on-course, While a player can help shepherd a youngster carrying for him during a round, that... to me, says the caddie master hasn't adequately trained his staff.

NO CADDIE should be sent out on a golf course unprepared to at least do a competent job. Now for those that just want a bag carrier, well that's NOT a proper caddie. If you just want some kid out there with the training wheels on and are happy to have a cheap looper strolling around with you... GREAT!

I was very fortunate to find the game in caddie yards with ALL age groups present, and while I certainly saw my share of vice there...that's the REAL WORLD folks, not the coddled environment so many of our youth experience today. You learn how to interact and handle yourself among folks from every walk of life. With a solid commit from the facility, and quality mentorship of the caddie program, a superior staff and golf experience should be there at any facility that can financially support it.

Make no mistake, 95% of golf facilities WILL NOT be caddie golf oriented. That is fine. Given its TITANIC contributions throughout golf's long history, for the game, particularly the administrative bodies and those that profit from golf, to not properly "reinvest" in supporting the caddie dynamic wherever economically viable.. that is the issue...for the reasons I've stated previously.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:48:09 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2012, 09:55:51 AM »
I belong to a club with a mandatory and very good caddie program. It absolutely adds to the enjoyment of the game, speed of play and course conditioning.

When taking a caddie I'm unfamiliar with, I often ask them to "give me your opinion" on a specific putt or shot. After a few holes I tend to get a point of view on how experienced and engaged they are. I adjust my expectations accordingly.

On occasion I've hosted a guest who is not comfortable with a caddie. Mostly, they have never taken a caddie or have had a bad caddie experience. In the majority of cases, they comment on how enjoyable it was to play with a caddie at round's end.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2012, 10:10:49 AM »
Getting back to Nick's original question, I caddied primarily at two different courses off and on through college.

The first was outside Chicago at The Glen Club in Glenview, IL. The Glen Club is a high end public Fazio course (all in green fees at the time from ~$175-$200) which also had ~100 "Corporate" Members. At the time, 2003-2007, there was obviously a lot of corporate golf played by guys with big expense accounts, and these types of players liked the luxury of caddies for their customers. Thanks to the economic times, I made anywhere from $120 - $200 for a variety of loops. I had a regular double bag loop that paid $120, I had two regular weekend loops which a foursome in carts that liked to gamble big, showed up 5 min before their time, and paid for two forecaddies to stand on either side of every fairway for $150. The rounds at The Glen were almost always slow, on average maybe 4.75 hours and many times 5+ hours, and because of timing and slow rounds it was rare to get more than one loop a day. However, the course operated with a "call ahead" system where if you either had a regular loop, or were requested, or a better caddie the caddiemaster would call you the night before and say "You're signed up for the 8:00am XYZ loop, get here by 7:00am" which was really nice because you didn't have to sometimes waste 6 hours just waiting for a loop like at many other clubs. Plus, you were allowed to play the golf course for free every day after the last tee time (around 2-3pm)...which was a great perk. 95% of the caddies at The Glen were College age and under with varying degrees of skill.

The second place I caddied was at The Country Club of Brookline, which was 4 miles down the road from my school in Boston. I was a student first when out at school, but I would usually loop Friday's, Saturday's, and Sunday's with the occasional Wednesday afternoon loop when the days were long enough. The only times caddies were mandatory was weekends before noon, but even during other times I would guess 60% of rounds were with a caddie. The pay wasn't as good as in Chicago, but loops were a flat rate of $100 as a honor caddie, but during tournaments we were given $150+. I rode my bike from my apartment to the Club at 5:30am to be one of the first caddies there to get priority, and I usually got out by 8:00 or 9:00am, but the time before my first loop was usually spent either reading the paper or doing homework...so it wasn't too bad. The membership really knew how to take caddies, and other than one glaring exception the members were really great people. Most of the other caddies were either in school of some sort (high school, college, grad school) but there were a fair amount of life long caddies there...some being really interesting characters, some a bit sketchy. The club also let caddies play on Monday (which I schedules my classes around Senior year, thank you very much :) ) and Thursday mornings on the Primrose if you wanted to, but if it was really slow around the club and the caddiemaster was in a good mood they would let you sneak over to the Primrose to play a few holes after saying "just be back by 9am for a loop." Overall that was a great experience, as I was able to pay for my living expenses in college by looping part-time (which according to one GCA member is apparently a despicable idea) all the while spending time on a world class golf course studying it's bumps and rolls.

While not the same hub of caddie activity as Chicago, the Twin Cities have a fair amount of clubs with caddie programs. One of the reasons I joined the club I did up here was that they have an active caddie program. There aren't any hard rules as to times when caddies are mandatory, but it's expected that you take one when they're available, especially on weekend mornings. I'm fine with that as to be honest, they aren't that expensive (~$25-30/bag for a "B" caddie, ~$40 for an "honor") which apparently keeps the caddie corps young. I can't imagine there are many, if at all, experienced loopers there, but I'm not as high maintenance as many other GCAers ;) and have no problem with supporting the surrounding neighborhood kids.  

While caddie programs aren't as prevalent as they once were, they are still available in many places, and many people still like to take them. There are many positives to caddie programs, and I would encourage others to support them at their clubs, when they are guests at other people's clubs, and through the WGA's Evan's Scholars program.
H.P.S.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2012, 10:54:41 AM »
As I said in an earlier post what is the take when a compulsory caddie policy stops good people joining a club? It's not being tight when you may pay $8000 per year for a 35 week season to balk at paying $80-100 a round to play your own course, one you should know pretty well!

To me a caddie is like a taxi, a luxury item that's nice to use but I usually have another (free or cheaper) option.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2012, 11:42:55 AM »
Thanks for all of the replies.  For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?

First trip to Pinehurst, early '90s. Upon arriving the first day, we're on our twilight round on #5 course and the caddy master (can't recall his name) playing as a single joins us for the last few holes. Tells my buddy and I that he'll get us a "good" caddy for our first trip around #2 tomorrow. Asks us if we will mind using their bags as his pick for our course guide is an older guy and couldn't schlep our bags. No problem.

Turns out the caddy is a 60+ year old black guy named Rush. He walks slowly, and we're wondering why this guy's so good. Second green I'm lining up my putt, and it sure looks to me as if it breaks a foot from left to right. Rush, from behind my buddy's ball and 90 degrees from where I'm putting, says "2 balls outta the right." Huh? I look at him with skepticism and hear, "man I don't needa be behind your ball, I been reading these greens for 43 years. 2 balls outta the right." It's impossible for me to hit this putt, which I see breaking a foot from left to right, outside the hole to the right. My brain just won't allow it. I hit the putt, with great speed, directly at the hole. . . and of course it breaks 2 balls from right to left. I look at Rush, we both laugh, and the remaining 16 holes he would simply tell us what to do, where to hit a chip, where to miss. . . one of the best days on a golf course ever.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2012, 12:43:02 PM »
Sean,

Where in our exchange did I suggest YOU did not have a respect for caddies? In no way did I mean to imply that. As to the role of a caddie just being a job for youngsters, there are different levels of caddie experiences. The underlying constant should be that the caddie, young OR older, should have a decent command of what is required to do the job, hustle and bring a friendly manner to the day. In a destination or elite course setting, the QUALITY caddie can add a great deal to that experience.


Kris

I didn't say you suggested I didn't have a healthy respect for caddies - huh?

I don't disagree with anything you wrote.  I am merely pointing out that caddies are a luxury beyond the luxury of golf itself. Caddies not being more popular is an economic issue.  Its to the point where at many places, to retain caddies, clubs mandate that caddies will be taken.  That is not a model anything close to most of the clubs/courses in the world are going to follow regardless of the benefits caddies bring to the game.  I don't have any problem with caddies or club policy toward caddies except for at my club.  Everyone can spend their money as they choose.  I was only saying that to make the model work better in terms of more caddies being employed, than kids getting paid less money is a possible solution.  I don't think there is any big future in terms of caddie growth for golfers to pay $80+ a loop.  That isn't to say that it isn't great if folks can get paid that - more power to them, but I am not interested in contributing to those coffers. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2012, 01:54:20 PM »
Who can post something for me?  I have a neat old article about caddies that I'd like to share, but don't have it posted anywhere on the internet?

Nobody?  C'mon, guys, this is good stuff!  Will somebody who knows how to get a document on the internet so it can then be posted here please send me their email, so I can send them the document? 

Shiv,

You can email it to me at: kbjames_70@yahoo.com.  I'll post it up.

Kalen

Kalen Braley

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2012, 02:14:19 PM »
OK, here is the article Shivas sent over....

I'm usually not the sentimental type, but this article makes a lot of very fine points!!







Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2012, 05:12:38 PM »
Unless the kid's carrying two bags. . in that case, screw him!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2012, 06:32:04 PM »
Unless the kid's carrying two bags. . in that case, screw him!

And he better not ask for more than minimum wage!! Don't these kids know that it's an honor to caddie for me??

 ;)  ;D
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2012, 06:05:35 AM »
Relax Stu, nobody was talking to you.
H.P.S.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2012, 01:14:34 PM »
Relax Stu, nobody was talking to you.

Pat,

Did you break into the lounge again?

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