Golfweek: GB&I course rankings

[Tony_Muldoon]

Along those lines, Ballybunnion has not been profiled on this website's Courses By Country. Has anyone with knowledge/ expertise considered filling this void?

I think there will be one in late June.  I look forward to reading it and comparing it with my own thoughts.

[Mark Chaplin]

Is Golf Week a US publication? If so I assume they are following the US classic and modern ratings.

[Sven Nilsen]

Along those lines, Ballybunnion has not been profiled on this website's Courses By Country. Has anyone with knowledge/ expertise considered filling this void?

A.  Its Ballybunion, not Ballybunnion.

B..  All of the Courses By Country reviews are done by Ran.  Here's an earlier thread where he addressed your question:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,8179.0.html

C.  The search function is a valuable tool.

D.  You're going to have a great trip.  Enjoy it.  As with any golf adventure, it'll go by much too fast.

[Chris DeNigris]

Sven:

E. That link to Ran's explanation of why no Ballybunion profile is a bit dated (1999).

F. I wondered the same as Michael about BBO last year when I was researching my first Ireland trip. Patrick Glynn did an amazing hole by hole course review of Lahinch with great photos...which I found thrilling and hugely informative. Really wished there was something even remotely close on BB.

G. Not too crazy about this lettering system..a little too businesslike and impersonal...I think I'll go back to the old way 

[Sean_A]

It seems to be Golfweek's thing to create Classic/Modern.  I think its a bit of a scam no matter which country we are talking about.  Not because of advertising, but because it means people don't have to make nearly as many of those hard choices which in part makes a good list more valid.

I think I said this before, but on the modern list, what ab out Saunton West and West Lancs? The Kintyre or Forest of Arden aren't up to scratch of these two.

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

Get rid of the ridiculous "Modern" and "Classsic" distinction

I agree Jeff - what's with it ? uniqueness ?

Just combine the list and be done with it.

[Jim Colton]

Get rid of the ridiculous "Modern" and "Classsic" distinction, change the list to 80 and all the omissions are in.
Notice all the ommissions are classic.
Would anyone notice (other than an advertiser ) if 10 of the moderns disappeared?

While it may have merit in the US, Classic/Modern doesn't seem to fit for GB&I. There are only 8 modern courses that score better than the 40th course on the classic list. The bottom of the modern list gets ugly.

[Jud_T]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

[Jackson C]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

Playing is different question than rating, right?
If I only had one round at the end of a trip to Ireland, and I had played a handful of the other classic links, I could see myself choosing Old Head for the experience and scenery.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

Jud- I would say 95% of people 'out there' would. Hardly anyone knows Carne or even Enniscrone, by contrast The Old Head has marketted itself into a 'must play'. 'Here' though it might be 5% although I think everyone wants to see OH for themselves.

[Philip Gawith]

My impression is that the portion of the best courses in the US that are modern is much higher than in the UK? Put differently, very few good modern courses built in the UK in the last 20 years, but quite a few in US. Correct?

If you extended this to Europe, I wonder how the picture changes? I don't have a good feel for the best modern courses in northern Europe but places like Oitavos and Praia del Rey in Portugal felt pretty good to me and would be in top 10 in UK modern list.

[BCrosby]

My impression is that the portion of the best courses in the US that are modern is much higher than in the UK? Put differently, very few good modern courses built in the UK in the last 20 years, but quite a few in US. Correct?

If you extended this to Europe, I wonder how the picture changes? I don't have a good feel for the best modern courses in northern Europe but places like Oitavos and Praia del Rey in Portugal felt pretty good to me and would be in top 10 in UK modern list.

Philip - Interesting. We should be able to test your hypothesis. We could look at combined lists for the UK and the US and check the ratios of classical to modern within each. My guess? The ratios in the US and UK are about the same.

I'd love to see someone do my homework for me.

Bob   

[Tom_Doak]

My impression is that the portion of the best courses in the US that are modern is much higher than in the UK? Put differently, very few good modern courses built in the UK in the last 20 years, but quite a few in US. Correct?

If you extended this to Europe, I wonder how the picture changes? I don't have a good feel for the best modern courses in northern Europe but places like Oitavos and Praia del Rey in Portugal felt pretty good to me and would be in top 10 in UK modern list.

Philip:

To your first question, yes, it's absolutely true, but it's really a matter of numbers.  There were something like 2,000 new courses built in the U.S. between 1998 and 2007, compared to maybe 100 in the UK.  So you would expect a lot more noteworthy courses to be built.

As for Europe, I don't know the answer because I haven't seen many of the new courses.  My impression is that there are fewer great new courses on the Continent because of two main factors:

(1)  much stricter environmental laws in several countries which makes some of the best sites off limits; and

(2)  a lower threshold of greatness so that neither developers or architects have been pushed to build courses that are better than "good enough".  [You have to try much harder to build one of the ten best courses in Scotland than you do to build one of the ten best courses in Portugal.]

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom - You are probably not far off with your 100 from 1998 to 2007, maybe nearer 80 is the number but if you extend it from 1990 to 2007 the number is about 600 new UK golf courses.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Given GB&I is older, maybe just redefine old vs new dateline as 1898.

Ganton only 87.06 pct as good as the best? That's not sublime, that's ridiculous!

Stop comparing Ganton to that place near...Hull, people! The cheese stands alone. Aye lads, and when the cake is added she towers o'er the spine of GB, and broad chunks of shoreline, too.

A marooned links right down to the shells in the bunkers, Ganton.

[jeffwarne]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

Jud,
Depends on where you are or where you'll be.
Old Head is 7 hours away from those courses, so that's a different trip (even for me )
and also on whether you've played any of them yet.
and in the case of Old head, your budget

I've played Carne and Enniscrone twice, but not Old Head. (it didn't exist when I was last in the area),
But I'm including it in my itinerary to the Southwest (but not without sneaking in Little Island as well, and I've always wanted to spend a night in Kinsale)
Of course I'm also playing Castlegregory, Caenn Sibeal, and Dooks.....and possibly the 12 holer at Parknasilla.
I think if one goes to Ireland or the UK and exclusively plays "true links" courses, he can have a great time, but occasionally there are great courses/places to see that aren't built on links land.
I found O'Mahony's point at Killarney enchanting, as well as Carlow, and I'm returniing to Little Island because I really enjoyed it.

Variety is the spice of life

but then I enjoyed Nefyn quite a bit too and that gets Sean A. all fired up  .

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, I KNEW you would be playing Ceann Sibeal and Castlegregory!! The 12 holer in Parknasilla is what my Dad describes as "a little gem" - I have played it but can't remember much about it other than liking it (I was about 9) - please do try and stay in that hotel in Parknasilla, though. It is a really charming place amongst all of the Celtic Tiger monstrosities.

I also love Mahony's point in Killarney. It is the epitome of fun golf.

Brian,
would love to stay at parknasilla but we've got to get to Kinsale that night as we've left Old head and Little Island for the last day

[Joey Chase]

My impression is that the portion of the best courses in the US that are modern is much higher than in the UK? Put differently, very few good modern courses built in the UK in the last 20 years, but quite a few in US. Correct?

If you extended this to Europe, I wonder how the picture changes? I don't have a good feel for the best modern courses in northern Europe but places like Oitavos and Praia del Rey in Portugal felt pretty good to me and would be in top 10 in UK modern list.

Oitavos Dunes maybe cracks into the list, certainly not top ten.  Praia D'el Rey certainly not even on the list.  There are a few fun "Modern" courses in the continent.  Try Sperone, Moliets, El Saler, or my personal fav. Noordwijkse.  All would fall under the modern category. 

[Sean_A]

Get rid of the ridiculous "Modern" and "Classsic" distinction, change the list to 80 and all the omissions are in.
Notice all the ommissions are classic.
Would anyone notice (other than an advertiser ) if 10 of the moderns disappeared?

While it may have merit in the US, Classic/Modern doesn't seem to fit for GB&I. There are only 8 modern courses that score better than the 40th course on the classic list. The bottom of the modern list gets ugly.

Jim

You say it gets ugly, but there isn't a course on the list I wouldn't consider joining if the circumstances were right.  One of the "problems" with rankings is most people view them as a tourista - including myself. Most of the courses which get ranked are good, its just that many will pale in comparison to the best courses.  Isn't it that way the world round?

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean I also think that old courses get much more 'points' than the  new ones in the ratings. Largely I think ratings are screwed up because the raters have not seen many of the new courses and have not had years of good press and clubhouse chat that so in so is good etc.  At the end of the day the real price of success is more how folks part with their money factored over location, in that respect the majority of golfers actually prefer the 'Belfry type' over the 'Woking' type. This site would not believe the peoples champion if 'the people' did the ratings. There are plenty of new courses that will over take the old ones in time as more the raters will come from the younger persons of today that are more into The Belfry than Woking. As far as I am aware only 10% of the rating panel on Golf World have visited The Players Club, if I was a rater I would only have visited 40% of the top 100. I have always though the best ratings would be by a panel that rated their areas, I have a detailed knowledge of my county and probably another three touching counties I am sure many people would be in the same position of that area knowledge.

[Mac Plumart]

Adrian...

Why not reach out to Brad Klein and ask to be a rater?  It sounds like you could be a HUGE value added rater.

If I am not mistaken, the GB&I ratings are fairly new and I'm sure Golfweek could use all the help from people with knowledge and experience of the area that it can get. 

[Shane Wright]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

Absolutely, if I hadn't played any of them, there is no question I would choose Old Head.  I would prefer to play Carne and Enniscrone day in and day out, but it seems to be the "cool" opinion to say you don't like or want to play Old Head.  If one goes point by point on the various ranking scales and criteria for each of the publications, it is easy to see how Old Head could be ranked highly.  

Sean Arble has made the point that a golf course should never have been built on this property.  That might be true.  I don't know the politics and history of the site.  But what they did produce on the site is very impressive.  The one thing that would cause it to really jump in my book is a little more creativity in the bunkering.  

  On a first trip to Ireland, money and travel times not being a factor, there is no possible way I'm not going with Old Head above Carne/Enniscrone.   But, where would I prefer to play every day and be a member, no question, Carne or Enniscrone.  However, these factors are beyond the golf courses and their rankings.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Would anyone here honestly choose to play Old Head over Carne and Enniscrone?

Absolutely, if I hadn't played any of them, there is no question I would choose Old Head.  I would prefer to play Carne and Enniscrone day in and day out, but it seems to be the "cool" opinion to say you don't like or want to play Old Head.  If one goes point by point on the various ranking scales and criteria for each of the publications, it is easy to see how Old Head could be ranked highly.  

Sean Arble has made the point that a golf course should never have been built on this property.  That might be true.  I don't know the politics and history of the site.  But what they did produce on the site is very impressive.  The one thing that would cause it to really jump in my book is a little more creativity in the bunkering.  

  On a first trip to Ireland, money and travel times not being a factor, there is no possible way I'm not going with Old Head above Carne/Enniscrone.   But, where would I prefer to play every day and be a member, no question, Carne or Enniscrone.  However, these factors are beyond the golf courses and their rankings.

Shane,

I'm not so sure golf rankings should be based on one play preferences though.

Certainly the desire for continued repeat plays gets a high mark in my opinion. Just because a golf course is a "must see" doesn't make it a better golf course I don't think.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

To me the clear mistake is Burnham and Berrow...I dont think many an Englishman would place Wallasey ahead of B&B..but that is an opinion.
I cannot understand the thoughts that Ganton is better than Woodhall Spa...but admittedly I am a huge Woodhall Lover and place it in my world top 20...I just think it offers the finest heathland golf in the UK....but I actually think both are better courses than the more high profile Sunningdale Old....but again that is my opinion which is what we are all sharing here.

Overall I think Golfweek has done a great job here..without any selections that stand out as being politically motivated...unlike GD's rankings that nearly always "smell" a little funny to me.

[Shane Wright]

Shane,

I'm not so sure golf rankings should be based on one play preferences though.

Certainly the desire for continued repeat plays gets a high mark in my opinion. Just because a golf course is a "must see" doesn't make it a better golf course I don't think.
[/quote]




Ally, I think that is a good point.  But as an example, Royal County Down is my favorite course I've ever played and certainly one of the best in the world.  But I'd probably rather play a Lahinch, Waterville, or North Berwick every day.