11 at Pebble Beach

[Anthony Gray]

Is it really a weak hole? What else could be done. The tee box is on the right and the mow line gives it a slight dog leg feel. The green is positioned so that an approach from the left is almost mandatory. And the green has the most slope of any on the course. So given the land isn't it well designed?


  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

Who classified it as a weak hole ?

[JESII]

For me, 11 - 16 are underwhelming and less than great holes with the exception of the approach to #14. Not bad holes, but there just didn't seem to much there there...considering the lofty status of the courses rank.

11 on its own is fine, and would probably be a good breather after one of the most mindblowing stretches of golf possible.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Who classified it as a weak hole ?

  Pat,

  Start reading threads other than your own . Its been said many times.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

The golfer's  battle with the right side hazard, on holes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, almost demand relief in the form of # 11, which is also the connector hole on the "turn"

Anthony,

How unrelenting should the challenge be, after playing the preceeding 7 holes ?

[Anthony Gray]

Pat....... I don't think its a breather. From the right its almost impossible to hit the green. And from above the hole putting is a killer.


  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think its just an okay hole, I hit it right side of fairway and made a 3, it was only a pitch second shot. For me the weakest hole is 12 but really just because of the tight bunker left. It should be a good hole. I dont like 14, the green IMO is too small and difficult but I can how some like it. 13 its not bad, 15 is another okay, 16 is pretty good, 17 was a big dissapointment as was the 1st. Perhaps the problem if it is a problem with Pebble is that it has six exceptional holes that are so good the rest dissapoints.

[Kris Shreiner]

That number 11 at Pebble is a VERY sneaky hole. It may seem easy off the tee, but position, relative to the pin, is everything on that hole. It may not have the arresting "juice" of the all world stretch of golf that precedes it, but it will bite you quite easily if you misque.
It's: surrounded by rather penal bunkers,especially the back one, has a narrow, steeply canted diagonal green, and can be scary quick from anywhere but a directly uphill putt when those Pebble greens have good pace to them. When the greens are soft it's much easier.

I've seen many a pro make a slight mistake on that hole and make bogie, or even double, in a heartbeat. It is particularly tricky, and plays much longer, when into an Easterly or swirling wind, which occurs frequently out there certain times of the year.

Cheers,
Kris

[BCrosby]

I agree with Sully. The 11th is a breather. But you need a breather after a run of some of the greatest, hardest holes in the world. So it works.

Interesting is that Herb Fowler, in his proposed changes to PB written in 1922, called for a par 3 after the 10th. The tee would have been just beyond the 10th green to a new green across the cove to an area just behind what is now a public(?) beach.

The tee for the 11th would have been next to the new green on the far side of the cove to roughly the current 11th fw up the hill. I'd guess Fowler's 11th would have played considerably longer and with a much more challenging tee shot. Two fascinating ideas.

The fatal flaw in Fowler's proposed changes to PB was his recommendation to take out the short 7th. He thought it a hole, to paraphrase, that "only a non-architect would think to design". (Clever comebacks to Fowler's criticism of the 7th write themselves.)

Bob 

[Tom_Doak]

The fatal flaw in Fowler's proposed changes to PB was his recommendation to take out the short 7th. He thought it a hole, to paraphrase, that "only a non-architect would think to design". (Clever comebacks to Fowler's criticism of the 7th write themselves.)

Pete Dye actually said to me once that he didn't think any professional golf architect would have thought to place the 7th hole at Pebble Beach as it is ... he just thought everyone would dismiss it as too small of a space for another golf hole.  Unlike Fowler, he was not suggesting that it was a weak hole or that it should be replaced, but instead that it was ingenious.

[Mike Hendren]

Good insight from Pat and Bob.  I agree with Bob that the golfer needs both a playable and visual breather after turning his back to the Pacific.  I also agree with Pat that suddenly the golfer is given the luxury of swinging freely with no fear of losing the tee shot to the right, which while harmful in appearance is in fact jail.  In that sense the hole reminds me of the 9th at The Old Course where the golfer has been conditioned up to that point to cheat a little left off the tee which is the only place you absolutely can't afford to miss off the 9th's tee. Not unlike dealing with a boxer that suddenly switches from righty to southpaw/mollydooker. 

The 7th through 10th test how good you are.  The 11th suddenly tests how smart you are. 

Bogey

[Howard Riefs]

Interesting is that Herb Fowler, in his proposed changes to PB written in 1922, called for a par 3 after the 10th. The tee would have been just beyond the 10th green to a new green across the cove to an area just behind what is now a public(?) beach.

The tee for the 11th would have been next to the new green on the far side of the cove to roughly the current 11th fw up the hill. I'd guess Fowler's 11th would have played considerably longer and with a much more challenging tee shot. Two fascinating ideas.

Apologies for my ignorance here... but I'm struggling to visualize where this #11 tee and green would be located for the proposed Fowler par 3.  Which cove?  You reference "considerably longer" but longer than which hole as the existing #11 is a par 4?  

Maybe I need a second cup of coffee this morning.  A visual to help illustrate.

[BCrosby]

Howard -

I assume Fowler's proposed 11th tee (it would have actually been his 10th tee since Fowler had eliminated the 7th hole. The current 10th would be Fowler's 9th.) would be close to the current 11th tee, but it would be directed not uphill to the current 11th fw, but to a green across the gully/cove/depression (pick your description) that is farther along the coastline beyond the current 10th green. That green, hard against the ocean, might have been in the same league as the 7th in terms of eye candy. The proposed par 3 would have played about 150 yards. But dunno. I also assume that circa 1922 there were no homes over there.

The new 11th tee would be next to Fowler's new par 3 green, with play back across the gully/cove/depression to the current 11th fw. Looking at the aerial, it would not be a major lenthening of the 11th, but the drive would be more severely uphill, I would think.

Is that still confusing?

Bob

P.S. Looking again at the aerial, there is lots of room over the depression. Fowler could have made his new par 3 pretty much as long as he wanted.  

[BCrosby]

BTW, I should have mentioned earlier that Sean Tully found the Fowler/PB materials I have been referring to.

Full credit to Sean and many thanks for his hard work in finding them. It was a research coup.

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

PB #11 can be as difficult as the course superintendent wants to make it, merely by the height at which the green is mowed. I don't think any other hole on the course defends itself at the green nearly as vigorously.

The second time I played it was on cloudy day in May with on-and-off showers that nearly emptied the course for a few hours. My wife and I had the course to ourselves, so when we got to 11, we spent about 45 minutes trying to get up and down from many different spots around that green. The greens were not running at near tournament speed, but even then balls would consistently trickle by the middle hole location. It took a perfect shot to get one close -- and by close, I'm talking about a three-foot knee-knocker with several inches of break and the certainty that a miss would leave a longer comebacker.

I don't know how they putt that green in the Open, but I know that under Open conditions, you'd be a fool to underestimate #11.

[Howard Riefs]

Is that still confusing?

Bob -

Thanks for the additional insight.  Makes sense.