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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".

A thread discussing why Dismal Doak is a wonderful routing would be just as fine a way -- better, probably -- for you to make the point that you think it is a great routing.

Though I do note that your OP had no examples of what about the routing makes you laud it so highly. Could you please talk us through the features of the routing that lead you to believe it is among the very best in the world?

Perhaps if you provide some substance, this thread might amount to something substantial.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here's something kind funny...I'd be flattered if Tom's course was the finest in Hooker County, Nebraska.   Think about it....and the population is less than 1,000!  Add in Prairie, Ballyneal, and Sutton Bay, etc. the region has some truly great places.  Golf is better for them all.

Since I'm not much into the subjective, I'll be happy with with the finest job Tom and team can do on an incredibly unique site.  I think it will be both quite good, very special, and tons of fun.  Stuff unseen out this way and rarely anywhere.  I only care about if our members, and those they may share it with, like it.  They are the people we serve and, if it is special and important to them, that meets the goal.  Anything else is outside that which we are all about.  

Tom - I agree with you 100%.  To my knowledge, nobody was as "insistent and persistent" about crossing the road - that was a special few days!  I love to share the story (probably embellished) and hope it will become part of Dismal legend.  These eyes have not seen a better or more interesting routing.

C. Squier - IM me if you would like that answer, and you will probably be suprised by the "value". I get enough flak here already.

Michael - no real progress on what to call them - haven't spent much time.  I like "Flying Spur" for the Doak - part of my ancient family crest, but we may well not name either course.  Dismal River just fine to me.

John - I enjoy the wide variety of opinion and experiences here, and will always offer my own if I feel it contributes.  I have a very thick skin and am quite comfortable in it.  Be prepared to be dissected!

 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree the "crossing the road" aspect of the routing is quite something.

You start with normal sand hills golf (which as we all know if quite amazing) and then shift into something out of this world.  It seems the close you get to the river, the deeper you get below the massive dune, and the more magical the place feels.

And all that is with the land being transformed into a golf course.  Man, imagine when it is done!!   :D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Don_Mahaffey

Dismal Doak is indeed a great routing.
When I started the "genius routing" thread a year ago I was trying to define what I considered a great routing. It's always about great golf, but also a routing that takes advantage of all the site has to offer to keep construction and maintenance inputs to a minimum while still providing a great course.
If I were to start that same thread today, I'd use DD as the best modern day example I know. I'm going to leave it at that for now (sorry Scott, feel free to go into investigative journalist mode), but can't wait to go into more detail once we've transitioned from creation to the testing phase.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
The most striking part about DR #2 was that everything was already there.  One of the guys would show me the tee box (which was more or less already a tee box in the case of at least 14 of the holes!) and they didn't even have to point.  The golf holes were obvious once you were standing on them.  When you weren't standing on one, it just all blended together.  How anyone can make sense of all that "noise" when you're in those dunes is insane.  I don't care if the land is perfect.  Someone still has to see golf holes coherently.  Not easy.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don,

Quote
If I were to start that same thread today, I'd use DD as the best modern day example I know. I'm going to leave it at that for now (sorry Scott, feel free to go into investigative journalist mode)

This is a disappointing cheap shot, entirely misrepresenting my (now unfortunately deleted) posts.

Those same posts celebrated how enlightening it had been to hear from Chris J when he first arrived here about how he and his team had calibrated the inputs on Dismal River to achieve preferred firm conditions as well as rebuilding several greens to improve the course. I am sure a similarly insightful discussion of the routing of this golf course would be appreciated by all GCA.com readers.

If you read the top post on this page I invited John Kavanaugh to start that constructive, educational conversation with his insights into what makes Dismal Doak a great routing. Mac does that somewhat in post #52 with mention of the river and dune, Ben Sims does even moreso and I hope you might move on from cheap and inaccurate shots and maybe contribute likewise.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree the "crossing the road" aspect of the routing is quite something.

You start with normal sand hills golf (which as we all know if quite amazing) and then shift into something out of this world.  It seems the close you get to the river, the deeper you get below the massive dune, and the more magical the place feels.

And all that is with the land being transformed into a golf course.  Man, imagine when it is done!!   :D

Mac,

Up at the far corner of the course (the 5th hole and 6th tee) I think utilizes some of the best natural landforms of the routing apart from the big tumbling ground across the road. Honestly, the view when standing on 6 tee and looking back across over at 5 tee looks very much like what you'd find on a big dunesy seaside links and should appear even more so when the course is grassed and mowed out. It boggles the mind how a teeing area like at the 5th, so large and relatively flat was just lying there all this time amongst the sand hills formations. Driver par 3's are fairly rare so I think it'll be a lot of fun standing on 6 and watching the group behind play their tee shots! I wish I had a decent picture of what I'm talking about.


What I do have is the view on 6 tee looking down the fairway. 6 itself is quite simply one of the most natural golf holes I think I could ever imagine. It was a favorite the first time CJ showed it to me and remains so after playing it in the dirt some 3 months later.


« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 10:19:47 PM by Eric Smith »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Since someone asked, I will talk just a bit about how the routing came to be.  It's a combination of being able to read a map, of stumbling across things on site, and of having some timely assistance.

I had asked Chris for the topo of the site prior to visiting, because I am very familiar with becoming lost in the scale of the Sand Hills and I needed to identify some places to start looking for holes.  When we arrived on site -- Brian Slawnik, Eric Iverson, and myself -- I actually had an 18-hole routing sketched out that I thought could be really dramatic, but I was fully prepared to change it based on things we saw in the field.  Even more of that original routing was down by the river -- in fact, there were a couple of holes that CROSSED the river, which would have been nuts.

The first thing I did when we got on site was ask Chris about going down by the river.  He said he'd never thought about the possibility but that he was worried it might be an environmental issue and that there was plenty of great land up above, so he hoped we'd start there.  I was pretty deflated by that, because I'd studied the map enough to know it would be hard to get up and over the top of the site without having a couple of awkward holes or a couple of tough transitions.  But, we did the dutiful thing and spent our first day above the road.  We looked at a couple of holes going west from #1 and then coming back to #2 tee -- there was a great green site on the latter hole but in general the two involved a lot of climbing.  We looked at a longer hole playing up the hill [as #2 does now] and on toward #3 green.  #4 was on my map and we were pretty giddy to find a green site with some cool natural contours already in place, and #8 was on my map as well ... but we discovered the loop of #5, 6 and 7 on that first day, along with some other options, and kept going back up there to look at them again.

We spent half our second day back up above the road, pressing further north, trying to figure out how to find another 6-8 holes without too much hill climbing.  There were a few potentially great holes along the way, but they didn't connect together well at all, and the overall effect would have been too hilly to walk -- and though Chris hadn't specifically asked for a walkable course, I was determined to find one.

So, at lunch the second day, I suggested that we look below the road, and we talked about how close one could get to the river and what the environmental issues would be -- some of which were about deer flies!  But I knew I had some awesome holes in the hopper down there and hoped it would be okay.

My very first hole going across the road was not the present 9th -- it was a short par-4 playing down into the start of #10 fairway, and I was surprised to find that it was blind from the tee.  My next hole was going to play down through the line of the ravine to the river, but as we drove down there we got into wet ground -- almost getting our vehicle stuck -- and I started to worry that Chris was going to write me off as nuts.  But, later on that afternoon, we got out to where holes 11 and 12 and 13 and 16 are today, and everyone started to fall in love with the idea of getting down close to the river.  We just didn't have a routing that worked.

The one other thing we DID stumble upon on that visit was the par-4 ninth.  I had been saving the area of that fairway for a big practice facility, and the hole was not so obvious to build on the map.  But we spent a lot of time hanging out by our hub near the first tee, considering our options, and late one afternoon the sun hit that hole just right [with the bluff behind in shadows] and I just said, wow, we should put a hole there!

Fast forward four months, and Eric Iverson and I returned in March of last year to try and hammer out the routing.  This time I came in the driveway with the basics of an 18-hole routing, nine holes above the road and nine below.  It included the two holes west of #1, and #3 and #4 combined into one hole, to make the upper loop.  The lower loop started with holes 9-11; the 12th green was a bit further on and then we had a par-3 back to the present 13th tee; we played 13 and then went straight from there to 16-17-18.  Eric and I went out and test-drove that routing our first day and thought we were close to finished, and we showed it to Chris the next day.

But, we woke up the following morning and I asked Eric what were his two least favorite holes and they were the same as mine ... the 2nd hole to the west of the 1st, and the little par-3 at the far end of the back nine.  We looked at how much ground we hadn't used in the middle of the back nine -- some of it fairly gentle -- and Eric suggested adding the present 14th and 15th holes. 

With that, we had eliminated the par-3 in the back nine, and got up to 19 holes -- so we could eliminate our two holes west of the first, and break up our long hole up the hill into two holes, the current second and third.

That's how genius gets done -- back and forth between the map and the field, and with a little timely help.


I've got a proposal that needs to get out the door today.  I will try to edit this post tomorrow so that it's more clear, and answer questions if there are any.  But, you guys are not going to convince me to change the routing now.  One of the most important pieces of knowledge in golf architecture is knowing when you still have to keep working on the routing, and then knowing when it's time to stop.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".

On this site, I kinda feel the exact opposite. I think the best threads are when someone makes an over the top, definitive statement, and then tries to defend it while everyone else demands that he qualify it or parse it.

In that spirit, I will call this the greatest thread started...this week. And, for the record, I haven't read that many others... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".

On this site, I kinda feel the exact opposite. I think the best threads are when someone makes an over the top, definitive statement, and then tries to defend it while everyone else demands that he qualify it or parse it.

In that spirit, I will call this the greatest thread started...this week. And, for the record, I haven't read that many others... :)

George, you make a valid point, but the problem with John's statement was that he made no effort to back it up, despite being asked several times to do so. One would expect more from the "Greatest mind in golf". :D


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Donal,

I replied to your question earlier in the thread.  I don't understand why I need to be able to prove something for it to be true.  Please take a little time to read up on Bernhard Riemann who remains most famous today for the Riemann Hypothesis.

I stand by my hypothesis that Dismal Doak is the finest routing of all time.  The proof is in the proverbial pudding.

Here is a picture of the Drivable par 3.



Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
My recall of events is a bit different than Tom's and I share them here as it is the story that is told on-site.  I also find it very funny and hope I can put it into words that tell that properly.

Tom and Eric arrived Dismal when, like today, the club was closed for the season.  That meant that they had to "rough it" and eat with the handful of us that remained in OZ (maintenance), rather than experience the "Emerald City" (the clubhouse).  In fact I don't recall even showing them the clubhouse during the visit - that's not why they were there.  They were very focussed.  

Anyway, Tom arrived in the afternoon and took command of the 4 seat Polaris Ranger and he and Eric went out.  That night at dinner, Tom casually mentioned he wanted to "look across the road" (the entrance drive) and explore the land between the Road and the Dismal River.  My response was that the club had always wanted to preserve the wonderful viewscape from the clubhouse and, while I was not around at the time, I was pretty certain the members would not like the view "tainted" by a golf course and asked him to fouces on other areas north of the road.  Those who have been to Dismal know about the view from the famed back deck fire pit.  I could tell Tom wasn't very happy with the answer but he agreed...for now.  

Dinner was "country nice" and Tom asked alot of questions about what I thought I wanted in a course, probing a few specifics like "importance of walkability", "how important is for Par to be 72" and "how improtant is overall length".  I recall responding that I enjoy walking as I do at Sand Hills, that a Par 72 was unimportant, that I loathe really long par 3's, and that loverall ength didn't matter much.  I told him we wanted something unique and different as the site allowed.  I recall the only contributions that Tom let me prevail were "non circus greens" and bentgrass putting surfaces to match our other course.  In the whole, it was obvious Tom thought me weird and I thought him to be quite "odd" as well.  

The second day at Breakfast, Tom asked again (still nicely) about crossing the road.  I again, but probably a bit more firmly told him no.  Both the first and second expeditions on the site were DO (Doaksters Only) and I was not with them. I didn't think it was my place to attend and don't recall being invited.

To digress, I had sent Tom an set of elevations early on and told him any of the land South of the entrance road was his canvas.  Unfortunately, (or Fortunately), the plans I sent did have the elevations for the land north of the road towards the river and huge bluffs including both "Big and Little Horseshoe".  That was my mistake and I never thought anything more about it.  In all honesty, I had sent the wrong plans to Tom!

The second day at lunch, the boys came in and shared that they had "staked out a few holes" and really liked them.  While eating Tom paused, and this time stated rather firmly (even defiantly) that they were crossing the road after lunch.  Not asking anymore, just a very firm Doakish statement.  I didn't know what to say, was a bit struck, and said something like "goshdarnit, Tom, you can have a look but we can't building a course over there.  Mind you, I still didn't know that the closely guardrd routing that Tom had prepared already had holes there, and was too stupid to to know that was the reason the routing was so closely guarded!  It's also probably why he came out in the first place.  I just thought the guy was secretive as Tom certainly is a very artistic in his craft.  Through this, Erik was "stoically amused" by the entire dialog over, then, 3 meals.  I think Erik knew they were crossing the road all along!  Me?  I felt like I do when my daughter keeps asking to come in later on a Saturday night.  Permission by attrition is what we call that here at the house, and young Paige is a master at it.

Now that the "curfew" was eliminated, Tom invited me to come along.  Eric was grinning and we set out to explore.  I still didn't get it for a while but Eric kept unfolding and closely studying the site plan.  I thought: man these guys can really read an elevation on the fly!  Tom and Eric weren't looking for passages, they were looking at their routing!  Silly me.  Hole after wonderful hole was revealed and Tom was unusually quiet, those who know him know he is pretty reserved to begin with.  Concentration personafied.  Me, I was telling dopey stories about the site and was probably  little more than a nuisance.  After looking at several outstanding holes routed together, and beaching the Ranger in a bog after a wrong turn, Mr. "let me know if you ever see water up to the hubs cause we could have a problem then " (that was my job) showed me the 18th, the prettiest natural hole I had ever seen!  Looking right at the clubhouse a half mile away, to boot!  That's when Tom kicked the dirt and asked "how important" it was (to me) that the course finished where it starts.  Now full of the DoakAid, I told Tom this was his design and I really liked the fact that it ended as it did, if he did - it was Dismal River after all and we liked being different.  For those who haven't been out, you must take a cart to the Nicklaus course as it is at least a mile from the clubhouse.  We don't have a huge priority on proximity out here.

In sum...fortunately, we crossed the road.  Tom has a 250 yard par 3, kind of like a beautiful 7-foot blonde.  We have a front 8 and back 10.  Par is not 72.  We'll be lucky to hit 7,000 yards.  These aren't compromises, it's what was there to be discovered by a master.  The routing is both wonderfully unique and very, very good.  18 terrific holes.  Old' can I look across the road" has become a (still strange and quiet) friend but I confess fear he has some more tricks up his sleeve - it has to be the greens!  Did he set me up?  Yep - he already had the river holes on paper!  Fortunately, he didn't take no for an answer, especially from a person like me who didn't know anything.  Then again, this wasn't his first rodeo and he probably deal with tons of of folks who have  a copy of "Architecture for Dmmies"

I also recall Tom saying one thing and, again, Tom isn't much for words.  As we began the walk back to the Ranger to begin the trek back to homebase, Tom simply stopped, hands in pockets, briefly looked me in the eye, and said very seriously "this course has to be built".  Knowing Tom's history with Dick Youngscap and Sand Hills, that really hit home.   We wouldn't build a second course just to have two, and this is important to Tom as he gets to make his mark on a very special area.  Then, imagine my surprise when I saw Tom's simple post soon after he left on a GCA thread strated by another titled "a genius routing".  After visiting with this strange fellow and his sidekicks, and seeing what they found and put together, it was game on!  

Other tidbits... I believe, the rumor is true, Brian Slawnik shapes to ABBA.  And...we coined a new term...Doakish.  And...Don Mahaffey really is that good.  We are in very good hands with outstanding people.  Our team, and members, are very excited!












John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
All these stories and no mention of this mystery woman.  Who is she?



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I must admit...I find the details of new course discovery to be fascinating...especially on land like that!

It seems like its a giant puzzle and having spacial ability would be a huge plus when trying to keep it all straight in your head.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK,

Just to note, the picture you posted is of the par 3 3rd, which should play around 200 yds +/-.

Here is a view of the par 3 5th, which as you will recall, plays quite a bit longer than that!


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eric,

Thanks, I guess that is why I called the 3rd drivable.  So who is the mystery woman, please tell me it's a woman.  Things get confusing out there.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
How long will the 5th play?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
How long will the 5th play?

It's a four fingered driver.  I tried three and came up short.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jud,

As we 'played' it, the 5th was all of 250.

JK,

She is a fellow member.

CJ,

That is one beautiful post.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0

JK,

She is a fellow member.



I should have known...Marketing 101.  You guys are good.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.

Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.

Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.

George,

I hope there is never a book but am looking forward to the epic thread of 2014.  "How Tom Doak screwed up the greatest routing of all time."  We will be interviewing authors at the 5th major.  We have already lined up three ghost writers.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 02:20:57 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.

Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.

George,

I hope there is never a book but am looking forward to the epic thread of 2014.  "How Tom Doak screwed up the greatest routing of all time."  We will be interviewing authors at the 5th major.  We have already lined up three ghost writers.

Forget the writing by a "ghost", I suggest we invite Herr Doak for a Roast.  That would be a fun evening!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom and Chris -

2 great posts. Thanks for letting us look under the hood.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the most important pieces of knowledge in golf architecture is knowing when you still have to keep working on the routing, and then knowing when it's time to stop.

I am again reminded of Malcolm Gladwell's piece about Steve Jobs, "The Tweaker," in a New Yorker just after Jobs's death:

"Jobs’s sensibility was editorial, not inventive. His gift lay in taking what was in front of him—the tablet with stylus—and ruthlessly refining it. After looking at the first commercials for the iPad, he tracked down the copywriter, James Vincent, and told him, 'Your commercials suck.'

" 'Well, what do you want?' Vincent shot back. 'You’ve not been able to tell me what you want.'

" 'I don’t know,' Jobs said. 'You have to bring me something new. Nothing you’ve shown me is even close.'

"Vincent argued back and suddenly Jobs went ballistic. 'He just started screaming at me,' Vincent recalled. Vincent could be volatile himself, and the volleys escalated.
 
"When Vincent shouted, 'You’ve got to tell me what you want,' Jobs shot back, 'You’ve got to show me some stuff, and I’ll know it when I see it.' "

Read more at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell#ixzz1jwHyWdsc

Which in turn reminded me of a story I edited 30 years ago, about the It ad agency of the time: Minneapolis's Fallon, McElligott, Rice.

McElligott, the creative guy, was talking about the process of writing ad copy. He said (paraphrasing now) that you went through a million possibilities -- until you found one you couldn't lie your way out of.

Re: "The one other thing we DID stumble upon on that visit was the par-4 ninth.  I had been saving the area of that fairway for a big practice facility, and the hole was not so obvious to build on the map.  But we spent a lot of time hanging out by our hub near the first tee, considering our options, and late one afternoon the sun hit that hole just right [with the bluff behind in shadows] and I just said, wow, we should put a hole there!" ------------- At Dismal River, it appears, Vincent's name is ... God!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 03:59:09 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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