[John Kavanaugh]

of all time.  After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.  Even Doak called it a genius routing.  What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head?  We are talking routing only here.

note:  I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.

[Jason Connor]

John,  as the most naive of novices around here, what makes it stand out THAT much?

I can tell a good routing from a bad routing, maybe I can tell a great from a good (I know what I like).

But I'm frankly not sure what would ever make me declare "This is the greatest routing ever."  Or this was the optimal routing possible on this parcel of land.

So could you or someone else describe the through process that goes into making such declarations.  Thanks for the info and let me know where to send my tuition check.

[C. Squier]

How much does it cost to join Dismal?

[Lou_Duran]

What's a routing?

[John Kavanaugh]

How much does it cost to join Dismal?

Less than a pork chop a day.

[John Kavanaugh]

Some routing somewhere has to be the best of all time.  I see no reason to believe that whatever routing that may be, even if it is Dismal, can not be beaten some day.

[Terry Lavin]

It's heartwarming to witness such restraint!  Your early endorsement reminds me of the flames of passion induced by the opening of Old Macdonald.  I tried to help fan those flames, but only after I played the course a month or so after its "full" opening.  That's a pretty solid routing as well, my friend.  So is Pacific Dunes, which, to me, seems like the most fun, playful and inventive routing on the property.  I'm no expert on anything in terms of course architecture, but I have tried to pay some attention to routing and the decisions that the architect must have been struggling with when a course was laid out.  Here in Chicago, I've always admired the routing of Olympia Fields North for several reasons.  First of all, it was the fourth course built on the property, leading one to conclude that the other land must have been more ideal for golf.  (The same can be said for Medinah, whose championship is the third of three.)  Routing wise, Willie Park, Jr. had to deal with several different sorts of terrain.  First, there was a chunk of land that looks like it was farmland.  Next, there are several holes carved out of native stands of oak and hickory.  Finally, there is a stretch of holes with somewhat dramatic (for Chicago, anyway) elevation changes and a serpentine creek.  The one crucial link, it seems to me, is a relatively benign shortish par three that connects the player to the final five holes which are plenty good and which feature the elevation changes and the creek.  Without this bridge hole, I think the course might have seemed like a Tale of Two Nines, which one sees at certain golf courses.

As for DR, I'll give you my opinion on the routing of the soon-to-be Doakie next summer.

[Eric Smith]

I think this thread is fairly useless without at the very least a routing map posted for all here to have a look. Without it, it's just more fodder. It would be fun to hear a recount of the process, particularly, as I understand it, when Tom told Chris that he's going across the road! Much of this may be on the genius routing thread, I don't remember exactly.

My opinion is biased, but it is a wonderfully routed golf course and I cannot wait to play it.

[Jud_T]

when 5 years from now John consistently plays the Doak course 7-3 over the Nicklaus...  Seriously how long does it take for the new course buzz to wear off? 5-10 years?

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting post/thread, John, and I'm happy for you that you had the foresight and financial wherewithal to become a member at a club that might offer the best routing of all time.

To answer your question: I think that IF the elements and qualities that comprise/characterize a great routing can be enumerated and agreed upon, then there is NO incubation period at all; none is necessary.  

You -- in speaking personally -- must believe that you CAN in fact enumerate all the elements that make for a great routing, and so you should feel free not to wait for even one more SECOND to proclaim that truth to the world!

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

Terry,

I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole.  I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean.  Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.

I did think the routing of Olympia Fields North was genius.  Really love the ability to use member tees on one hole as championship tees on another.

I'm not going to accept that a number of routings are perfect so there is a tie for best.  Use of a natural land/water form would be a tie breaker.  Dismal has both the river and the horse shoes.

[John Kavanaugh]

when 5 years from now John consistently plays the Doak course 7-3 over the Nicklaus...  Seriously how long does it take for the new course buzz to wear off? 5-10 years?

Jud,

No matter how much more critically acclaimed the Doak course is over the Nicklaus I will probably always play the Nicklaus more often.  The Nicklaus greens fit my shot shapes like they were built with my DNA.

[Sven Nilsen]

Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?

To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use?  Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?

The best routings may not be on the best courses.  Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think this thread is fairly useless without at the very least a routing map posted for all here to have a look. Without it, it's just more fodder. It would be fun to hear a recount of the process, particularly, as I understand it, when Tom told Chris that he's going across the road! Much of this may be on the genius routing thread, I don't remember exactly.

My opinion is biased, but it is a wonderfully routed golf course and I cannot wait to play it.

I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size.  The routing needs to be viewed from around the 13th green or so.  Even though we were out there alone we could feel the ghosts of golfers past who had walked those very grounds.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?

To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use?  Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?

The best routings may not be on the best courses.  Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.

Come on, the routing of Lost Dunes requires back tracks.  It is no better than Tobacco Road.  Puke.

[Jim Colton]

John,

  I've spent a lot of time staring at the DR2 routing topo, and I think you are probably in the right ballpark. I think of routing in terms of making best use of the best features of the property, and from what I've seen, Tom has made use of natural greensites and extremely good use of natural teeing grounds, with lots of design variety and a dramatic finish to boot. I hope to see the finished product someday.

  Jim

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,

The best routing of all time also has to be on a perfect site for golf.  We are not talking miss congeniality here.  I would think courses like The Old Course, Fishers Island, Pebble and Torrey Pines South would be in contention.

Yes Torrey Pines South, how else can you explain that history of exciting finishes no matter who is in contention.  Even Mike Davis couldn't screw it up with his heavy handed back room architectural hocus pocus.

[Philippe Binette]

Best routing in the world is a very relative term.

If you turn a difficult site into a great course without much dirt movement, do you deserve it more than if you take a great site to start with and a big property ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?

To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use?  Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?

The best routings may not be on the best courses.  Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.

Come on, the routing of Lost Dunes requires back tracks.  It is no better than Tobacco Road.  Puke.

Are the back tracks a result of poor design or a necessary evil to make the course work on a site that has a highway running through it and multiple wetland areas that couldn't be touched.  Property corners are often noted as the most difficult parts of a property to work with, there are probably no less than 20 exterior and interior "corners" that had to be dealt with at Lost Dunes.

From your response, it appears that for your definition of "routing" you're putting an emphasis on flow (the components of flow are another debate).  I'd venture its a lot easier to avoid backtracks and long hole to tee traverses when the land you're working with is open and unconstrained.  

It seems that there's a difference between "routing" as a result and "routing" as a process.  My question is should the qualitative analysis of routing take into account the amount of work (read mental exercise, not physical labor) necessary to link 18 holes together?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Best routing in the world is a very relative term.

If you turn a difficult site into a great course without much dirt movement, do you deserve it more than if you take a great site to start with and a big property ?

Phillip and Sven,

The finest routing in the world is simply the finest routing in the world.  It is not who put the best lipstick on a pig contest.  That is another question.

This is more like a track meet than a horse race.  It is not handicapped.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole.  I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean.  Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
...

Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?

[Carl Nichols]

Can you evaluate the routing before the course is finished?  What happens when that 16th hole par 5 that you think is going to be a great match play hole -- because it looks like a true risk-reward hole and should often come at a critical time in the match -- is actually pretty boring because the green is designed in a way that it doesn't encourage risky plays?  Etc, etc. . . .

[David Kelly]

To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.

I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.

[Sven Nilsen]

As someone who claims to be the finest mind in golf, I thought you might put a bit more emphasis on the mental process that goes into the routing process.  

If we're taking the concept of "routing as work product" out of the equation, can you start by being a bit more specific about what you think makes a great routing?  From what I can gather from this thread, here are the criteria you've identified so far:

1.  No back tracks;
2.  Finishing at the most dramatic part of the property;
3.  Offering good gambling opportunities on the back nine; and
4.  It doesn't make you puke.

[John Kavanaugh]

...
I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole.  I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean.  Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
...

Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?

Garland,

I've been through this before a million times far before Whitten.  You simply turn the par three 10th and 11th into a world class par four finishing hole and reverse 4 into the finest starter in the game.  There is plenty of room for a cliff side clubhouse between the current 11th green and new first tee.  Think Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water perched on the cliff.  A road coming in along the back crossing the new 18th fairway ties it all in.  We all know you gotta cross a road to win this contest.

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