[Michael George]

I have been reading a lot of old posts in the archives and have found some great stuff.  This Discussion Group has been involved in some great discussions.    

One exercise that I thought was cool was Tom Doak's thread that discussed what changes you would make to Golf Magazine's Top 50 rankings in the United States (circa 2003).  Tom's point in the thread was that it is a lot easier to say that this course is a top 50 course, but much harder when you have to remove one on the list.  Being that those rankings have changed since that post (believe it or not, many of the suggestions on this board have been added like Valley Club and Somerset Hills.  I thought I would re-post the most recent Golf rankings and offer up for discussion.  Further, back in 2003, the general thought of the group was that many classics were omitted in place for new designs (other than Matt Ward who defended many new courses). I think it will be interesting to see if general thought of classic versus modern has changed and what some people may think.  Just post those courses to add and those courses to remove. 

Here is Golf's current top 50:

Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Pebble Beach  
Oakmont, Merion (East), Sand Hills, National Golf Links of America, Pinehurst (No. 2)
Pacific Dunes, Crystal Downs, Winged Foot (West), Seminole, Chicago
Prairie Dunes, San Francisco, Fishers Island Club, Oakland Hills (South), Riviera  
Bethpage (Black), The Country Club (Clyde/Squirrel), Friar's Head, Los Angeles (North), Olympic (Lake)
Whistling Straits (Straits) , Kiawah Island (Ocean),  Garden City Golf Club, TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium), Muirfield Village
Baltusrol (Lower), Bandon Dunes, Oak Hill (East), The Golf Club, Southern Hills
Shoreacres, Medinah (No. 3), Old Sandwich, Camargo, Quaker Ridge
Inverness, Maidstone, Old Macdonald, Winged Foot (East), Harbour Town
Ballyneal, Somerset Hills, Nanea, Chambers Bay, Valley Club of Montecito

[Bill McKinley]

Great topic.  Here are my shakeups...

Out: TPC Sawgrass, Medina #3, Inverness, Chambers Bay.

In: Eastward Ho, Cal Club of San Fran, Bel Air, Yeamans Hall

[jonathan_becker]

I've played 17 and walked another of these 50, so I haven't seen even half of them.  But, imo, based on what I've played the first thing I would do is take out Muirfield Village and add Sebonack.

[Michael George]

My choices:

In - Victoria National, Bandon Trails, Pete Dye GC, Sebonack (OK, this is the one that I have not played, but have the Brad Klein book, have read a lot on the course and with its architects, am willing to say that Jonathan is right - not the first time on this site) and Kinloch

Out - Baltusrol (Lower), Oak Hill (falls in the fair test category more than fun course), Medinah #3 (boring), Oakland Hills (South) (great greens cannot cure boring tee to green) and Inverness (I like it, but just not top 50)

My guess, even though I have not seen them, is that Rock Creek and Alotian are top 50.  Hope to find out.
 

[Pete Balzer]

Out- Chambers Bay
In- Prairie Club- Dunes

[Jud_T]

Out- Whistling Straights, Bandon Dunes, Medinah

In- Bandon Trails, Kingsley

[Anthony Gray]

  Wine Valley is a dark horse, but a really fun course. One of the besy bunkered courses out there.

  Anthony

[JSlonis]

From a NJ perspective:

Out: Baltusrol Lower or Somerset Hills

In: Plainfield

[Mac Plumart]

Inverness...out
Sebonack...in

Inverness is really good with some great holes and some great history, but the "new" work on the course is too striking and obvious for it to be Top 50 material.

Sebonack is really something extra special when green speeds are stimped around 10.

[Ian Andrew]

Out Nanea and Chambers Bay
In Essex (Mass) and Yale

[Anthony Butler]

Agree with some of the other sentiments expressed here. From personal experience, I can only think of three courses, I'd remove, so the three most deserving candidates go in.

In: Eastward Ho, Boston Golf Club, Meadow Club
Out: The Country Club, TPC Sawgrass, Medinah #3,

[Mark Saltzman]

I think it is also useful to say which ones you've played and think should stay in:

Played and should stay in: Shinnecock Hills, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Merion (East), Sand Hills, Pinehurst (No. 2), Pacific Dunes, Crystal Downs, Oakland Hills (South), Whistling Straits (Straits), Bethpage (Black), Kiawah Island (Ocean), Bandon Dunes, Old Macdonald, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay

Out: TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium), Oak Hill (East), Medinah (No. 3), Inverness, Maidstone, Harbour Town

In: Sebonack; Kingsley Club; Rock Creek Cattle Co; Plainfield CC; Prairie Club (Dunes); Franklin Hills

Note: I expect Yale and Cal Club belong in the top-50, but I have not played them.  Next two I would drop are: Oakland Hills (South) [though this is a very tough call for me as OHS has the best set of greens I have ever seen] and Chambers Bay

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

I think Mountain Ridge would bump out a half a dozen to dozen courses.

[David Kelly]

Out: TPC Sawgrass (Players Stadium), Oak Hill (East), Medinah (No. 3), Inverness, Maidstone, Harbour Town

In: Sebonack; Kingsley Club; Rock Creek Cattle Co; Plainfield CC; Prairie Club (Dunes); Franklin Hills

Note: I expect Yale and Cal Club belong in the top-50, but I have not played them.  Next two I would drop are: Oakland Hills (South) [though this is a very tough call for me as OHS has the best set of greens I have ever seen] and Chambers Bay

Wow, you must have really liked the Prairie Club - Dunes course.  I've never heard anyone say they thought it was one of the best 50 courses in the country.  

[Jackson C]

I will cast another vote for the Kingsley club in.

TPC Sawgrass out.

[Mark Saltzman]

David Kelly...

Out- Chambers Bay
In- Prairie Club- Dunes

 

[David Kelly]

David Kelly...

Out- Chambers Bay
In- Prairie Club- Dunes

 

I stand corrected.  I remain skeptical that it could be that good but I'll have to see it to judge for myself.  Maybe after they build the Hanse course, or if they build the Hanse course.

There are a number of courses on Golf's list that wouldn't make my top fifty but I've only played about 30 of the 50.

[Mark Saltzman]

David,

I am certainly in the minority, but I believe if more people did what I did (played it 4 times, from 3 sets of tees over 2 days), instead of just playing it once, it would be much more highly regarded.

[George Freeman]

I haven't played enough to know which ones to take off (I have my guesses), but I'll echo Plainfield CC and Kingsley Club as two courses that I would think should be in a top 50 US.

[George Freeman]

Hell, Lawsonia might beat out a couple of those courses as well.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd end up changing more than six courses in this exercise, but as a start...

IN: Bandon Trails, Rock Creek Cattle Co., Pete Dye GC, Wolf Run, Victoria National, and Peachtree (all in my personal top 15).

To make room, OUT go Shoreacres, Inverness, Southern Hills, Harbour Town, Medinah, and LACC North (before the recent work).

Other courses definitely in: Pine Valley, Cypress, Pebble, The Golf Club, Pacific Dunes, Crystal Downs, Sawgrass, Muirfield Village, Chambers Bay, and Bandon Dunes.

[Wayne Freeman]

I've played 49 of the top 50 and 91 of the top 100...

        Prior to the redo, I always thought Pinehurst #2 was way overrated.  But my buddies who have played it recently now
 feel it belongs.  And I've never felt Seminole should be rated anywhere close to where it is... I just don't get it... yes I understand
 it's all about the angles and the wind, but bottom line, it just doesn't do much for you and has a lot of average holes, not to mention
 the fact that although it's on the ocean, doesn't make much use of it.

       I agree with several of the comments that Medinah, Baltusrol, Inverness, and Harbour Town should probably be replaced.
  I feel that Chambers and Nanea deserve their status.. both fantastic courses on spectacular sites.  I also love TPC Sawgrass and feel
  it is the most intimidating driving course on the list.

       Victoria National and Pete Dye Golf Club are solid top 50 courses and Rock Creek and Sebonack are two other good
  contenders.  Haven't played Eastward Ho or Cal Club but know they are both wonderful.  No way Bel-Air belongs in the top 100 in my book, although I learned to play golf there as a caddy many moons ago.

[Sean_A]

Yes, Pinehurst would have been one I would have replaced with Old Town.  Now, I will go with Old Town in and Oakland Hills out.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Could you list the "lot" of average holes at Seminole ?

As to the use of the ocean, how would you have better used it in light of the "valley" section between the two dunes and how would you have better used both dunes ?

[Pete Blaisdell]

Interesting topic, most subjective- fun to read the choices, pro and con.

I am only deleting or adding courses that I have played, seen or officiated at.

OUT-Oakland Hills--The Country Club--TPC at Sawgrass--Muirfield Village--Baltusrol (Lower)--Medinah 3--Winged Foot East-Ballyneal-Nanea--Chambers Bay

IN--Yeaman's Hall--The Honors--Cal Club--Essex County (Ma.)--Myopia Hunt--Whispering Pines--Kingsley--Kinloch--Kittanset--Aronimink

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