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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #275 on: October 22, 2012, 04:14:33 PM »
John W.

From all of what I have read (including on this forum) and all I have seen and I know, Trump's course has been accepted and supported by just as high a percentage of locals as has been Castle Stuart.  Both have created something where there was nothing, and have had a positive impact on the local economy and polity.


Rich

Rich,

I do not know what % of the local population supported either project and obviously have more direct experience of local reaction to Castle Stuart than Trump International but it there is a stark contrast in the amount of people who were against the Trump project compared to the complete lack of negative feelings being voiced for Castle Stuart. Part of this difference certainly has to do with the SSSI destroyed by the Trump project as apposed to the arable farmland of Castle Stuart but I think that the awful PR of the Trump organisation is as much to blame.

To suggest that there was nothing at Aberdeen is to totally overlook the unique natural site that was there.

Finally,  Michael Forbes' place is similar to many small holdings and crofters across Scotland. Yes, it may not be what you would want to see when looking out of your 5 star hotel window but I am sure that the long standing residents of the area feel the same. The old coastguard station seems to me to be a classic example of maritime architecture and looks very much a typical part of the landscape. I wonder if Mr. Trump's hotel will be considered the same???

Jon

PS. "trailer trash" is something that you might find in the USA but here in the UK you will be more likely to find "caravan clutter" ;D

Jud_T

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #276 on: October 22, 2012, 04:47:27 PM »
Somehow Caravan Clutter seems more civilized...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Rich Goodale

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #277 on: October 23, 2012, 12:03:19 PM »
John W.

From all of what I have read (including on this forum) and all I have seen and I know, Trump's course has been accepted and supported by just as high a percentage of locals as has been Castle Stuart.  Both have created something where there was nothing, and have had a positive impact on the local economy and polity.


Rich

Rich,

I do not know what % of the local population supported either project and obviously have more direct experience of local reaction to Castle Stuart than Trump International but it there is a stark contrast in the amount of people who were against the Trump project compared to the complete lack of negative feelings being voiced for Castle Stuart. Part of this difference certainly has to do with the SSSI destroyed by the Trump project as apposed to the arable farmland of Castle Stuart but I think that the awful PR of the Trump organisation is as much to blame.

To suggest that there was nothing at Aberdeen is to totally overlook the unique natural site that was there.

Finally,  Michael Forbes' place is similar to many small holdings and crofters across Scotland. Yes, it may not be what you would want to see when looking out of your 5 star hotel window but I am sure that the long standing residents of the area feel the same. The old coastguard station seems to me to be a classic example of maritime architecture and looks very much a typical part of the landscape. I wonder if Mr. Trump's hotel will be considered the same???

Jon

PS. "trailer trash" is something that you might find in the USA but here in the UK you will be more likely to find "caravan clutter" ;D

Hi Jon

Every place in the world is "unique" by definition.  The Menie Estate was/is one of 17 or so identified "shifting dunes" sites in Scotland, which is why it became an SSI.  Many more such sites exist in England, Ireland and the rest of the world.  Menie is hardly unique, even in SSI terms.

In the terms of stark reality, was Menie more important as an apple in the eye of a small number of shifting dunes geologists or as a site for one or two great golf courses that would bring significant economic development to an area that was otherwise bereft of attractiveness?  I know what I think, but I respect your right to differ.

Rich

Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #278 on: October 23, 2012, 01:17:21 PM »
Rich,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The Menie Dunes were a significant wind blown shifting dune system on a scale not found else where in the UK. I would be interested in you producing your list of 17 dune systems that are of the same SSSI. I wonder if you would be so sympathetic towards Trump if it were you and your family being bullied in this way? I very much doubt it.


Jon

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #279 on: October 23, 2012, 01:34:41 PM »
Rich,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The Menie Dunes were a significant wind blown shifting dune system on a scale not found else where in the UK. I would be interested in you producing your list of 17 dune systems that are of the same SSSI. I wonder if you would be so sympathetic towards Trump if it were you and your family being bullied in this way? I very much doubt it.


Jon

Jon,

As it's been pointed out several times the Menie estate is only a portion of the overall Fovran SSSI that encompasses a huge area there on the east coast. And the golf course itself only encroaches on a portion of the overall Menie estate and the dunes in question. The fact the dunes have been stabilzed does not in itself mean that the SSSI designation has been lost or removed. It may provide scientists with additional things to study therre. Your comments are misleading in regards to the actual devastation.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 01:54:31 PM by Chris DeNigris »

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #280 on: October 23, 2012, 01:50:00 PM »
.....his comments may or may not have been misleading as to the amount of devastation, however at least he knew which coast he was on.

Niall

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #281 on: October 23, 2012, 01:53:30 PM »
.....his comments may or may not have been misleading as to the amount of devastation, however at least he knew which coast he was on.

Niall

Thanks Niall...I always get my left and right mixed up! I fixed it.

Of course that's crucial to the discussion :)

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #282 on: October 23, 2012, 02:07:15 PM »
Chris

My pleasure.

You are correct that the portion of shifting sand system that Trump devastated is only a portion of the overall shifting sand system however it is a sizeable portion, I seem to recall to reading that it comprised something like a third although I could easily be wrong at that. Either way its still going to have an impact.

Rich stated in an earlier post that there were something like 17 of these systems dotted around Scotland. I do clearly recall reading in an SNH document that in fact there were only 3 sites like this in the whole of Europe.

I suppose you could argue all thats overstated and franklly I'm not qualified to argue one way or the other but I doubt the environmental damage is as overstated as the economic impact this course is meant to have in the local economy.

Niall

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #283 on: October 23, 2012, 02:22:55 PM »
Chris

My pleasure.

You are correct that the portion of shifting sand system that Trump devastated is only a portion of the overall shifting sand system however it is a sizeable portion, I seem to recall to reading that it comprised something like a third although I could easily be wrong at that. Either way its still going to have an impact.

Rich stated in an earlier post that there were something like 17 of these systems dotted around Scotland. I do clearly recall reading in an SNH document that in fact there were only 3 sites like this in the whole of Europe.

I suppose you could argue all thats overstated and franklly I'm not qualified to argue one way or the other but I doubt the environmental damage is as overstated as the economic impact this course is meant to have in the local economy.

Niall

Yes Niall...those environmental folks never overstate anything :)

Let's say the environmental devastation turns out to be relatively insignificant and the hotel does get built along with some residential development....and it turns out to be a real success story for Scotland and the local area. I know I'm a crazy optimist but that's what I'm pulling for. But then again I don't really have an agenda, hidden or otherwise.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #284 on: October 23, 2012, 02:47:12 PM »
Chris,

I hope that it will be a success as well but it does not address the manner in how it was done. Even if you do not agree in any way or form with someone you can still do it in a civil manner which the Trump organisation has failed to do at almost every occasion a difference of opinion has been raised.

Regardless of how many similar sites there are in the UK it was a SSSI for a reason. I will be interested to see Richard's list when it comes.


Jon

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #285 on: October 24, 2012, 12:36:57 PM »
Chris

Without going to the bother of measuring the acreage of Trumps course lets assume its somewhere in the region of 200 acres. Lets also assume between the tees, fairways, greens and "stabilised areas" that they account for at least half that area. Thats 100 acres of a precious eco-system that no longer exists. I could be out by as much as 20 or 30% in that estimate, who knows, however its a fair chunk of ground. Other than perhaps Trumps public relations guy, who wouldn't reckon that is significant ?

The question (at least to me) is really about what you get in return for giving that up and is it worth it. To answer that you have to first quantify what you're getting ie. economic benefit, jobs etc. From what I've read on it, and what I've heard, the numbers talked about are fantastical and have got ever more fantastical with the economic benefit being first half a billion dollars, then half a billion pounds, then a billion dollars and eventually a billion pounds, and no one seems to challenge it. Unfortunately that also includes the planning authority doing absolutely no due diligence either. Then there's the projected number of jobs. Again, who asked the question "eh Donald, exactly where are those jobs going to be..........and why's your nose getting longer ?" When you weigh this project up, it was never anything more than a local housing/hotel development promoted by an international celebrity that at best has dubious benefits. The only national significance that this development has is to make Scotland's planners and politicians a laughing stock.

Was it worth it ? Not in my opinion.

Niall
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 02:01:07 PM by Niall Carlton »

Rich Goodale

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #286 on: October 24, 2012, 01:42:33 PM »
Jon and Niall

My statement of the Menie Estate being one of 17 mobile dune sites in Scotland was based on my reading of the SSSI designation documents 3-4 years ago.  I have neither the time nor inclination to try to track down the specific reference (but a brief google brought up this Trump-unfriendly website which says that his project is threatening 3.9% of the "bare dune" sand and 2.6% of the "mobile dune vegetation" in Scotland).

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/details.aspx?id=tcm:9-176633

This seems to support my "one of 17 in Scotland" recollection.  Please go ahead and try to find evidence to the contrary if you can.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #287 on: October 24, 2012, 02:05:51 PM »
Rich

I have even less inclination than you to go looking for evidence or what I might have read a couple of years ago. To an extent its all water under the bridge. The question is what happens going forward. I for one hope that the politicians heed the lesson and stop pissing about with due process and that local authorities in the shape of their planning department undertake proper investigation of supposed economic benefits where that is a supporting factor for going against planning policy.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #288 on: October 24, 2012, 05:04:09 PM »
1500 holiday homes, 36 golf villas and a 450 bed hotel. If they get built obtaining a tee time won't be too easy as I cannot imagine many people staying at the hotel or buying a holiday home if they do not golf.
Cave Nil Vino

Doug Ralston

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #289 on: October 25, 2012, 12:30:36 PM »
I will gladly owe $5.000,000 to the first one of you who can tell me which of Trumps doctors messed up his lobotomy!

I ask a few monthes ago if anyone on this site knew him personally and could give me some insight. I received several 'warm' responses telling me what a personable and clever fellow he was. *SNORT!!*

Conservatism, I know, leads to some outre rationalizations, but Jesus. This man ............................... an ego the size of a small star and an IQ in single digits. But what I really must consider is what that says about those who actually fall for the 'carnival barker's' routine.
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #290 on: October 25, 2012, 02:54:31 PM »
1500 holiday homes, 36 golf villas and a 450 bed hotel. If they get built obtaining a tee time won't be too easy as I cannot imagine many people staying at the hotel or buying a holiday home if they do not golf.

Mark

As Mike Whittaker would tell you, all the available accommodation in the surrondng area is constantly booked up by oil companies, nothing to do with golf. And you can bet the accommodation aint cheap either.

Also, nearby Ellon, an Aberdeen satelite town if you like, has had the second strongest growth in residential values in Scotland of late. Property in the UK in general might be performing poorly of late but Aberdeen and its surrounds is an oil produced bubble. The hotel and housing will go ahead, mark my words.

Niall

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #291 on: October 25, 2012, 03:55:11 PM »
As Mike Whittaker would tell you, all the available accommodation in the surrondng area is constantly booked up by oil companies, nothing to do with golf. And you can bet the accommodation aint cheap either.

Constantly ? ,,,,,, NO !

Oil Shows or Foggy Weather ..... Yes !

Paul Gray

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #292 on: October 25, 2012, 05:59:50 PM »
I really feel as a collective us golfers are not representing ourselves well by keeping so quiet over this. Wonderful that we discuss these things in forums but of no real impact. This whole project has flown in the face of the natural principles of links golf, both in terms of actual physical activity and a more general relationship with the area as a whole. I'm no anarchistic flag waving lunatic but I have to speak out when someone like Trump misrepresents us all so badly. And be assured, rightly or wrongly, unless more of us are heard this whole saga will be seen by the wider World as golf vs nature. We can't alter what's already happened but we can effect demand. Simply don't visit the place and encourage others to at least search their conscience before planning a trip. If, like me, you feel embarrassed by this whole project, declare yourself accordingly to the 'Tripping Up Trump' campaign.

I studied economics at university and worked in The City for years but none of this means I've ever thought economic development was such a holy grail that we should abandon all other principles in pursuit of it. Suggesting that we should endorse the whole project because a few locals are now employed by Trump is about as smart as suggesting we speed up the destruction of the rain forest in order to boost economic growth in South America. And anyway, even ignoring the obvious point that much of this Trump related growth is actually just the shifting of tourism from one place to another, what of the elephant in the room? Trump will only build his hotel now if the wind farm project is scrapped. I have no figures to refer to but I'm sure the growth of a renewable energy industry off the east coast would provide far better long term benefits to the area as a whole than one hotel/golf resort.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #293 on: October 25, 2012, 09:41:33 PM »
Doug Ralston,

He's very bright.

He can be very charming and he can be very difficult.

As to the size of his ego, I couldn't quantify it, but it's in the extra large category.

He's also got a good sense of humor.

And Melania is absolutely drop dead gorgeous, in case you're interested in that sort of thing.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #294 on: October 26, 2012, 12:34:00 AM »
And, Letterman just schooled the Trumpster and demonstrated why DT is the biggest egomaniac impulsive fool who ever took the center ring of the circus.  It was easy, just ask DT what he thinks on pretty much every subject, fawn and ooh and ahh, let him run with his half baked semi-thoughts, and voila, you get instant dufus.  Letterman got DT rambling about his endorsement of Mittens, and led DT into opining what a great plan Mittens has to crack down on China, and China is stealing our jobs and ruining the currency markets, then Letterman changes the subject and says, "now Donald, you have a new beautiful line of shirts and ties marketed through Macy's".  Trumpy lights up, and Letterman brings out some fancy shirts and ties, and raves at how fashionable and beautiful they are.... then non-chalantly looks at the Trump label and says: "now where are these made?"  China!!!... classic!  Trump  looked like he hacked a big hairball from licking his own asshair that matches his coiffer.  
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:36:36 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Alister Matheson

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #295 on: October 26, 2012, 01:05:19 PM »
And, Letterman just schooled the Trumpster and demonstrated why DT is the biggest egomaniac impulsive fool who ever took the center ring of the circus.  It was easy, just ask DT what he thinks on pretty much every subject, fawn and ooh and ahh, let him run with his half baked semi-thoughts, and voila, you get instant dufus.  Letterman got DT rambling about his endorsement of Mittens, and led DT into opining what a great plan Mittens has to crack down on China, and China is stealing our jobs and ruining the currency markets, then Letterman changes the subject and says, "now Donald, you have a new beautiful line of shirts and ties marketed through Macy's".  Trumpy lights up, and Letterman brings out some fancy shirts and ties, and raves at how fashionable and beautiful they are.... then non-chalantly looks at the Trump label and says: "now where are these made?"  China!!!... classic!  Trump  looked like he hacked a big hairball from licking his own asshair that matches his coiffer.  
I watched  this as well and Donald's face looked like a fortnights frost when informed about the ties lol !
Cruden Bay Links Maintenance Blog

http://crudenbaylinks.blogspot.com/

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #296 on: October 26, 2012, 06:43:39 PM »
RJ,

No set up there huh, just Dave being spontaneous with no agenda.

I guess that's why Hilary is smart in insisting that all questions to be asked of her have to be submitted in writing in advance, so that she's not snookered ala Letterman

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #297 on: October 27, 2012, 05:27:09 AM »
Jon and Niall

My statement of the Menie Estate being one of 17 mobile dune sites in Scotland was based on my reading of the SSSI designation documents 3-4 years ago.  I have neither the time nor inclination to try to track down the specific reference (but a brief google brought up this Trump-unfriendly website which says that his project is threatening 3.9% of the "bare dune" sand and 2.6% of the "mobile dune vegetation" in Scotland).

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/details.aspx?id=tcm:9-176633

This seems to support my "one of 17 in Scotland" recollection.  Please go ahead and try to find evidence to the contrary if you can.

Rich


Rich,

I can understand that this (supposed) list of 17 sites which you recall might not be so easy and therefor worth the time finding for you. I do not need to prove that this is not correct as at the moment it is uncorroborated hearsay which has little weight and I am happy to leave it as such. If you are not then you should find the proof.

 The RSPB are not a dedicated Trump hating organisation as you portray them but certainly more interested in nature than golf. 3.9% is 1:25th of the total area of this type of dune system being lost of which Menie is one of the more significant. It is certainly not worth destroying this natural wonder (of which there are few) in order to a golf course (of which Scotland has many hundred). What is galling is that it is possible to produce good golf course on mundane land as CS and KB prove. The dunes were enjoyed by many more of the locals at a lower cost than the golf course will ever be.

You seem to have little regard for non golfers or destruction of things that can not be reproduced I wonder what your reaction would have been had Mr. Trump got his hands on Royal Dornoch and redesigned it to create 'the greatest golf course in the world' out of the run down, mundane goat track????

Jon

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