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David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »
Chris D. -

The Menie site is (or should we say, was) one of 6 such sites in Britain. What is the "right" number of sites to preserve and have? One? Three? Five? How many of these wild places are easy accessible to the residents of Aberdeenshire?

On the other hand, there are several thousand golf courses in Britain and a number of those are already in Aberdeenshire. I doubt there is a shortage of luxury golf resorts in Britain either. ;)

DT       

Kalen Braley

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2012, 07:03:38 PM »
I took the time to read the article last night and I can see at least part of both sides as argued in this thread.

I get that its a somewhat rare landform, for Britian,...but I didn't see any language to suggest its actually unique, like a Grand Canyon, etc.  The basic jist of the article was "hey this is really neat, we should study this more to see how this sand continues to move given its not held down in one place by the local foilage like most other dunes in the area"  But I don't see how that's any different to a golf course enthusiast who comes upon same piece of property and comes to the conclusion "this is really neat, we should put a golf course here and enjoy mother natures handiwork"

To me this begs the question....What is intrinsically different about one of use of a landform vs another? Because something is naturally occuring does that mean it should get a free pass?

Do we just throw in the towel and not build flood control systems in the form of canals, dikes, dams, because mother nature has the right of way?  Isn't that water just as "oppressed" as those sand dunes now are due to mankind's intervention.

Do we also choose not to kill bacterial and viral diseases because its mother nature and she was there 1st.  We should just sit back and let it have its way right?

Do we throw away all our light bulbs, torches, street lamps, etc because mother nature wants it to be dark during the night?  Aren't we oppresively interfering by artificially lighting things up at night?

At what point do we draw the line?

And seeing how Donald Trumps financial motives are being called to the carpet, how about the financial motives of the SNH?  Do they not also rely on grants and otherwise from the government?  Do they not benefit from putting together reports and studies that puts future money in thier pocket in the form of further research?  Are they beyond such monetery motivations in these cases?

I'm also surprised that no one else has yet to mention that every single contributor to this paper, despite claims of such otherwise are in some way or another tied to the SNH or were tied to it.  Even of the two independent reviewers, one used to belong to the SNH and the other guy who submitted the paperwork belonged to the organization that eventually evolved into the SNH.  In fact the entire paper itself was initiated and funded by the SNH.


And then after all that, the SNH has the gall to put this disclaimer on the submission?

"The views expressed by the author(s) of this report should not be taken as the views and policies of Scottish Natural Heritage"

I'm finding very little scientific integrity in the article based on the fact that the fox was guarding the hen house!!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 07:12:46 PM by Kalen Braley »

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2012, 07:37:40 PM »
David T- When you can't answer a question in a straightforward manner you attempt a weak strawman. My backyard is a unique piece of land but that doesn't mean there is any consequence if I build a garden shed.

Somewhat unique is not a characteristic that by itself provides intrinic value.

If you can answer the question great but if you can't just say so.

David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2012, 09:28:49 PM »
Chris D. -

While I have never seen your back yard,  I seriously doubt the physical, geological & topographic features of your backyard make it unique in any scientific sense. Do you honestly believe it is or are you setting up a strawman of your own? ;)

I have answered your question as best as I know how. If the physical characteristics of the dunes on the Menie Estate are (or were) shared by only 5 other areas in Britain, it seems to me a strong case can be made for preserving that area in its wild and natural state. The fact that it is (or was) available and accessible to the citizens of the 3rd largest metropolitan area in Scotland to enjoy at their leisure is another mitigating factor. And, of course, the fact that there was plenty of other suitable golfing land available to site the golf course is yet one more reason this whole drama could (and likely should) have been avoided.

That is all I can tell you.

DT



          
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:40:39 PM by David_Tepper »

Dave McCollum

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2012, 10:33:28 PM »
A few questions:

So much wind here.  Any way to harness it?

Was the movie any good?

How do city folks know so much about the environment?

Wasn’t Machrihanish Dunes built on such a site?

How many of the folks here did as I did, while driving from Aberdeen to Cruden Bay and seeing Menie site:  pulled off the road, stopped, and asked “Why aren’t those dunes golf courses?”

One more question and I’ll answer it myself.  Ignoring the political diatribes, as fun as they are for the participants, is this thread relevant to golf course architecture?  Sadly and strangely, I think it is.

Oh, I just thought of another one.  Didn't Doc McKenzie say something about all great holes or courses being polarizing?  This must be one hell of a course.

David_Tepper

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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2012, 02:45:25 AM »
The next act in this soap opera unfolds:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/trump-halts-golf-resort-work-for-turbine-decision.16518619

David,

This article,  the one you posted, states that Trumps project was ONLY APPROVED AFTER A LOCAL PUBLIC INQUIRY.


Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2012, 04:22:48 AM »
A few questions:

Wasn’t Machrihanish Dunes built on such a site?


Oh, I just thought of another one.  Didn't Doc McKenzie say something about all great holes or courses being polarizing?  This must be one hell of a course.


Dave,

Machrihanish Dunes was built on a SSSI site as well but it was one to do with flora & fauna not shifting sands as with Minie. Also, Machrihanish Dunes did not destroy the essence of the site.

Yes, Doc Mac did say that. Unfortunately it is not the courses playing aspects that are been discussed :'(

Patrick,

it fails to mention what the public enquiry was about or the result. Are you sure it was about the project and not the way the decision was been made?

Jon

Sean_A

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2012, 05:49:55 AM »
Jon

I don't think the government enquiry into the government's decision-making process was a public enquiry.  Pat is referring to the enquiry Aberdeenshire Council held after the refusal of approval and the government calling the application in.  This baby cost AC £73,500.  I don't know if that was money well spent or what the outcome of the enquiry was.  I suspect it was just an opportunity for people to ask/answer questions without there being an "outcome" other than the recording of what was said.  If they were smart, that cost should have been passed onto Salmond.  It was his actions which caused the application to be called in after a decision was made. 

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2012, 06:46:00 AM »
Sean,

my point was that the enquiry was not about the project or whether it should go ahead but the process and circumstances on how the decision was reached. It was about procedure not result if I recall correctly.

Jon

I believe the result of the Aberdeenshire enquiry was that no rules were broken.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 06:47:55 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Sean_A

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2012, 07:23:17 AM »
Jon

Not sure what you mean.  It is my understanding that the government inquiry was about government procedure which had an outcome - Salmond was essentially stupid for calling Trump, but that no rules were broken.  The AC inquiry was just a session to spew - no real outcome other than a £73,000 bill.  So far as I know, we have no idea if or how much the government relied on testimony to influence their decision to call in the application.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2012, 08:39:42 AM »
Pat M. -

Read this article from 2008. It clearly states that Trump's initial application for the project was rejected by the local authorities. It was only after the Scottish national government stepped in and reversed that decision that the project was given the green light.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/trump_between_you_and_me_i_m_going_to_get_it_1_1162224

Here is another article (December, 2007) that clearly states how the national government interfered with the local planning process.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/fresh_blow_for_salmond_over_trump_affair_1_704823

DT  
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 08:43:09 AM by David_Tepper »

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2012, 08:45:37 AM »
Jon,

You keep mentioning how the site - or now the "essence of the site"- has been destroyed. I'm not totally understanding what the destructiion has been so far there. I've seen the photos of the site in the SNH report but perhaps you can elaborate on what's different now and what's actually been destroyed. Maybe some before and after photos to show the magnitude of the destruction. Thanks.

Chris DeNigris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2012, 09:10:51 AM »

David,

Thanks for providing the articles. Very enlightening. Below are the last 2 sentences from the first one.

"Many people in the North-east of Scotland appear to have embraced him.

 One poll carried out in the region gave him 80 per cent support."

David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2012, 10:00:06 AM »
Chris D. -

I firmly believe that, in a representative democracy, planning decisions should not be driven by public opinion polls. Public opinion can be very fickle and ephemeral. It can change in a matter of months or a year or two. Just ask our current President (or Rick Perry)! ;)

However, the results of decisions made by planning authorities have implications that last for decades or centuries. In the case of the Menie dunesland, that environment has likely been changed forever.

I personally witnessed the planning process regarding the construction of a multi-unit residential building in the center of a village we both know in northern Scotland. The locals were very vocal in their opposition to the construction of the building. Fortunately, the planning authorities had the integrity to do the right thing and grant approval for the construction of the building. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that, if you polled the very same people who opposed the construction of the building before it was built 12 months after it was built, the vast majority would have said that the building turned out fine and they have no problem with it.

DT

 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:09:03 PM by David_Tepper »

Lou_Duran

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #165 on: January 26, 2012, 11:31:24 AM »
Sean- thanks for allowing me to "save face".  Why don't you tell me precisely which "allegations" I am avoiding and I will try to reply.

ChrisD- by now it should be clear that for some, polls (and direct democracy) are only useful when they support your POV.

DavidT- isn't it ironic that a former cheerleader of government green energy policy (Kennedy) would side with Trump on wind turbines in his backyard?  Interesting that a man of your profession doesn't require at least an attempt at quantifying the effects of public policy.  You may be a willing adherent to the precautionary principle; as a few have tried to convey here, vested interests are unavoidable on all sides.  Me, I require a bit more rigor before bestowing the mantle of Gospel or Fact on preferences, opinions, and conclusions.  BTW, I am mostly in agreement regarding public opinion and planning decisions so long as there is recourse in overcoming the bad outcomes which invariably result.  I've had unanimous P & Z votes which reflected populist sentiment overturned by city councils on two occasions, and the results were as you suggested (the developments did very well in the communities).

Kalen- you've put me in the uncomfortable position of saying that I've read your analysis and found it compelling.  I've always appreciated your knowledge and assistance on technology; not so much on other things.  An unexpected  surprise.

     

David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #166 on: January 26, 2012, 12:10:52 PM »
"BTW, I am mostly in agreement regarding public opinion and planning decisions"

Lou D. -

I am always pleased when we can find grounds on which to agree.

DT

Lou_Duran

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2012, 12:25:55 PM »
Is it really worth destroying environmentally significant landforms so that Trump can ship in hundreds of eastern European workers at £6.08 an hour?

Quote from: Lou_Duran on Yesterday at 11:52:04 AM
Chris Kane- here I thought people of the Left loved humanity regardless where they're from, or is xenophobia ok if you swing from that side of the ball.
Lou, its very disappointing that you've resorted to this sort of offensive bulls***. Ironically, accusing anyone they disagree with of racism/xenophobia, and triviialising that most serious charge in the process, is a core tactic of the Left (of which I'm not certainly not a part, as anyone who's ever met me will tell you). I'm not sure you will have the class to apologise.[/quote]
[/i]

I am sorry Chris, did someone hack into your computer and wrote the comment about "eastern European workers" above?  Typically, words have meanings.  Or are you of the Clinton school (“all depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is”)?  Perhaps you prefer Humpty Dumpty’s approach: “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more or less”.  But even under either method, certainly what you wrote can’t be massaged into anything positive about eastern Europeans trying to gain a foothold in a more secure, happier situation.  By the way, if I had said in the U.S. “that Trump can ship in hundreds of east African blacks at £6.08 an hour” I would have been justifiably taken to the woodshed for being racist AND xenophobic. (I do agree with you that both share similar roots.)  BTW, in AUS or even Scotland a wage of $10/hour might be easily dismissed by the local populations, in Texas, Walmart and many golf courses have no trouble finding well-educated seniors to take jobs at 65% of that rate to provide services to their customers.

As to having the class to apologize, while apologies are cheap, I will do so for mistaking you as a Leftie.  Personally, I would have been deeply offended by such a serious, erroneous slur.  I am sorry.  I must have you confused with another Ausie who inadvertently sent me an IM meant for one of his mates, where he had cut and pasted one of my screeds on economics, with a comment, something to the effect “this dumba-- thinks he knows something about XYZ, but he is full of sh--and himself.”.  When I IM’d him back that perhaps he meant to send his commentary to someone else he offered that he meant nothing “personal” and invited me to play with him when I visited AUS.  Do I have the wrong guy?

Lastly, perhaps Scotland is different, but Texas has had more job and population growth than any other state in the Union for many years because it is welcoming of outsiders. People move here for a better life not just from eastern Europe, Asia, Mexico, etc. but from every state.  Were we to take such a provincial view- say, that Frisco, Texas has an unemployment rate well-below the national average and, therefore, should be extremely tight in allowing lower-paying industries to settle here- we would lose much of our vitality.  And what would it say about our morals and ethics- we have ours, get yours elsewhere?  That is essentially the NIMBY mentality.  I hope that you as well as the good folks of northern Scotland don’t feel that way.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:31:04 PM by Lou_Duran »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2012, 12:54:46 PM »
Quote
Kalen- you've put me in the uncomfortable position of saying that I've read your analysis and found it compelling.  I've always appreciated your knowledge and assistance on technology; not so much on other things.  An unexpected  surprise.

Lou,

I'll take that as a compliment...I think!!  ;)

I remain surprised that after nearly 8 pages of discussion, the credibility of the report remains effectively infallible by the opinion of most.  Just because someone has a PhD attached to thier name doesn't mean that they get it right...or even "get it" for that matter.  In the field of technology over the last 10+ years,  I have seen many a Engineer, who is a college drop out, run circles around vastly superior qualified candidates, at least from a schooling credentials point of view.

On a related note, I don't see how one organization, namely the SNH, can possibly speak conclusively for and on behalf of the will of the people.


David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #169 on: January 26, 2012, 01:02:57 PM »
Kalen B. -

I don't think anyone (especially yours truly) has claimed or advocated that SNH did or should "speak conclusively for and on behalf of the will of the people." SNH is not empowered to make planning decisions and did not do so in this case. The decision was made by the elected and appointed officials of the Aberdeenshire government following established policies and procedures. It is as simple a that.

DT   

 

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #170 on: January 26, 2012, 02:08:16 PM »
Jon,

You keep mentioning how the site - or now the "essence of the site"- has been destroyed. I'm not totally understanding what the destruction has been so far there. I've seen the photos of the site in the SNH report but perhaps you can elaborate on what's different now and what's actually been destroyed. Maybe some before and after photos to show the magnitude of the destruction. Thanks.

Chris,

as has been mentioned many times in this thread the shifting dunes that were stabilised by this project and so no longer shifting. As it was the fact that the were not stable that made them and therefor the site a SSSI it should not be difficult to appreciate that by stabilising them you destroy the thing that made the site a SSSI.

I am not against this project and indeed think it will bring great benefits to the area. I do however think that it should have left the SSSI site intact a thing that was possible with NO detriment to the project. Also, I do not the terrorising of the local inhabitants nor the sacking of employees who refused to break the law is justified. It seems however that some here think that the building of a golf course excuses almost any act.

I wonder if they would if it was them getting victimised and their backyards altered.

Jon

Chris Kane

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #171 on: January 26, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »
I guess I was right Lou, you don't have the class to apologise! You have chosen to ascribe the worst possible motivations to what I said - usually a tactic promoted by the Left to smear anyone who disagrees with them and shut down debate. I could write a long explanation of why everything you have said doesn't apply to what I wrote, but I know it would be futile. Like a red rag to a bull, you read what you wanted to read. And I don't need a lecture about being welcoming to outsiders - you have me pegged as something I'm not.

Regarding what happened many years ago, it was poor form. I got a fairly nasty rambling response from you (fair enough), and I thought that in the circumstances it was right to apologise. Of course it was nothing personal - I don't even know you! I don't recall inviting you for a game, but I could be wrong about that.

Mark Woodger

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #172 on: January 26, 2012, 04:06:47 PM »
i have not seen the film or studied what has been modifed on the SSSI or all the other details of the case but understanding what i think i do from this case i think it is an absolute disgrace that an area of SSSI is modified/change IMPACTED for a GOLF COURSE!!! it beggars belief that this was given approval.

I think i could have gone to that area, left the SSSI alone a built a decent golf course. It really didn't need to be touched and if a decent course could not be built without impacting it then there should not be a golf course. We have laws in place for listed buildings (the building equivalent of the SSSI) and they should do the same for land of this type.

i am sure there are some economic benefits but as we have seen in the last few years economies come and go, rise and fall but sure as sh)t a new sssi is not going to appear again so we can all say goodbye to that part of the natural habitat.

One of the reasons i love golf is that i am outside in the fresh air, preferable near the sea and i get to 'connect' with / 'be surounded by' nature whilst doing something i enjoy. Just because i love golf i am not going to screw the with important land features that have been there hundreds of years just so i get a nice par 4 or 5.

this is a travesty if the highest order!




Chris DeNigris

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #173 on: January 26, 2012, 04:39:16 PM »
Mark,

What if educated, knowledgeable and well reasoned people extensively studied all the issues at hand and concluded differently. Would their  well informed opinion hold any sway with your admittedly uninformed opinion?

Mark Woodger

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #174 on: January 26, 2012, 05:03:46 PM »
for me no. If an area is a sssi it should sacrosanct and left untouched. and i include any work to maintain it in that statement. it should be left to evolve naturally.

For me the only issue at hand is the sssi. the question should be 'does the proposal effect it?' if yes then thats where the conversation ends.

my understanding is that this was not the case and the sssi has been affected and changed. that to me is wrong.

I appreciate some people think the benefits ourweigh the costs but i am not of that opinion and unfortunately decisions like this are made too often with, in my opion, not enough regard for the damage they cause and too much focus on the percieved economic benefits.

I have no doubt the educated, knowledgeable and well reasoned people think they made the correct well informed decision. I would speculate that if i were to have access to the same information i might make a different one. However they got to make that choice and i didn't so i can only express my opinion from the sidelines.

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