Pinehurst makeover

[John Shimp]

Given the bold and well received redo of #2, how should Pinehurst resort consider moving forward with the rest of its courses?  I personally love the place and would like to see it use #2 as a touchstone to make the resort as good as it can be.

It would be most interesting if replies tried to take into account certain likely constraints like money and space and recent investments made in other courses or whatever other constraints come to mind.

[Cory Lewis]

With all the houses surrounding #5 it would be hard to change the routing, but I would like to see them bring in a Doak or C & C or DeVries or Hanse or George to completely renovate the course.  #1 and #3 are both Ross and have their charm, #4 is a a pretty good Fazio Redo, #5 is the weak link in the bunch IMO.

[Mac Plumart]

I was thinking about this last night.  And, of course, that would be great for many of the courses...but it has to make financial sense.

But when I took a step back and thought about the quality golf that is there, I wondered if it really would matter to me, a golfer.

I can go to the area on a golf vacation and hit,

the "new" #2,
Dormie,
Pine Needles,
Mid-Pines,
Tobacco Road for some spice,
and Southern Pines. 

#4 is pretty good as well and #8 isn't bad either. 

I got it at 1 World Top 100, 5 total great/very good courses, and 8 very much worth playing.

But the kicker is, I haven't even seen 1/2 the courses in the area.

[Jud_T]

Mac,

It's true that the town is great and one can put together a very nice golf trip to the area as you mentioned (might want to get Forest Creek North into the mix).  The problem is that the resort proper is sitting on 8 courses, only 1 of which I'd include in an itinerary.

[Andy Troeger]

It does seem like the resort has a challenge in that its other courses don't create the buzz that would keep golfers at the resort beyond playing #2. From what I gathered, there is a large membership contingent at Pinehurst and a good deal of the play on the other courses comes from those members and not necessarily from guests. On my recent trip, I didn't get a chance to play any of the other resort courses besides #2, in part due to scheduling conflicts and in part due to not prioritizing them with scheduling over places like Dormie and Tobacco Road. We also had the opportunity to make a side trip to Eagle Point in Wilmington. I'd have liked to have seen #4 and #8 based on comments, but multiple GCA'ers suggested Forest Creek's duo as better options so we played there instead. We also played Pine Needles, which is a Top 100 Classic in its own right. I can't say as I regret missing #4/#8 given the quality of the options we did play.

Given all that, the question for me would be whether improvements to #4/#8 or any other resort courses would create enough buzz to move them up that list of area courses, or would it just add an expense to the resort without the likelihood of things changing?

[Mark Saltzman]

It does seem like the resort has a challenge in that its other courses don't create the buzz that would keep golfers at the resort beyond playing #2.

I don't think this is true.  I would say more than half the people I talk to that have been to Pinehurst prefer one of 4, 7 or 8 to 2. 

The new 2 is much improved, but people loved the other courses at the resort and I don't see any reason why that would change.

What should they improve? Honestly, not much.  Based on my own preferences, there aren't any courses at the resort beyond 2 that I really like, but, unfortunately, the resort doesn't cater to GCA nerds. 

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
From an economic perspective, I could certainly see that being true. #2 isn't flashy in the traditional sense--even with the improvements I could see a lot of folks walking off and wondering what the fuss was about. I certainly wouldn't change every course at the resort to that look--some folks probably liked it better the old green way. They need somewhere to play still.

I wonder if Pinehurst loses any business from resort golfers that don't visit because they only can notch one name course. Bandon obviously has the four top quality courses and Pebble has Spyglass as a very worthy second option. Whistling Straits/Blackwolf Run is a good combination as well. Dormie hasn't built the reputation yet outside of insider groups and Pine Needles doesn't have the name draw of those other locales.

Its interesting to recall that the other Pinehurst courses did very well when Digest did that public course bracket last summer. They evidently do have a following, even if its not here.

[hhuffines]

Cory is right about number 5 but I am anxious to hear what they plan to do with the property at the Pit and the unfinished #9 that Nicklaus was working on several years ago.  Anyone know updates about those?

[John Shimp]

Interesting perspectives.  Clearly not a simple path forward.  Still, if the resort wanted more attention/share of wallet for travel in guests what would they do?  Cory suggests reworking Maples #5.  What about 7 or making #1 or #3 (both Ross) more like 2?  Or unifying the "on campus" style of courses 1-4?  The member element is interesting here as Andy points out.

[Adam Clayman]

If the resort is honest, they will accentuate the aspect that has changed on #2, the most, to the rest of their courses. The maintenance presentation.

#4 will likely be the most improved, principally, from a  changed in the meld. 180 pot bunkers that are as relevant as teats on a bull, with long bermuda surrounding them.

These maintenance practice changes, should lower costs, in the long run.

[Terry Lavin]

In terms of an overall maintenance meld, I agree with Adam completely.  Beyond that, there ain't that much to change.  Pinehurst has a pure, ethereal feel to it.  The little town, the Pinecrest Inn and some of the old-timey golf courses are something special.  So, tweak the courses, but leave the town alone.

[Craig Disher]

I'm not sure there's money to be made by significantly altering the odd courses - at least if the goal is to create something that mimics the appearance of #2. All are so constricted by housing that there's just not enough room. On most holes, a yanked shot on #2 will find sandy ground; on 1, 3, and 5, it's likely to wind up in someone's back yard. The resort members also have to be accommodated and those courses have a lot of appeal just as they are.

Cory - except for the original Ross holes on #5 do you like any of the others? After the 5th I think it's pretty ordinary until #15. And #18 is a very dreary finishing hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Andy,

I have heard the same thing, both from golfers and CCA personell over the years.  No. 4 and  are very popular.  No. 2 leads because of its history, and I wonder if the redo will help or hurt its popularity, at least until someone big wins an open on this version of the course.

The popularity of the modern courses there by name designers suggests to me that Pinehurst may eventually update all of them for business reasons, and if you want authentic, non championship Ross, you may have to go to Mid or Southern Pines a decade from now.  That would actually give both/all places a bit of a marketing niche.

[Terry Lavin]

I'll say it again: playing #1 in the afternoon, after a long morning slog on one of the tough courses, is nothing but fun.

[Bruce Wellmon]

#8 was closed last week when I was there. They said till March I believe.
Perhaps Cory, or others local, can say if that is a regular winter occurance or ?
 

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not sure there's money to be made by significantly altering the odd courses - at least if the goal is to create something that mimics the appearance of #2.  

Craig, While I only played the 2,4 and 8 courses, I don't mean to recommend mimicking what was done on the deuce, exactly, other than to imply the deuce was done intelligently. The goal should still be to give each course it's sense of place, highlighting the individuality. Tweaking the maintenance to the perfect meld, implies each course/hole is different. 'Perfect' being open to interpretation based on the costs, style and features on the ground.  

[Cory Lewis]

Cory - except for the original Ross holes on #5 do you like any of the others? After the 5th I think it's pretty ordinary until #15. And #18 is a very dreary finishing hole.

#5 has always been my least favorite course at the main clubhouse.  10 is one of the worst holes I have ever played.  15,16, and 17 are all enjoyable and the other Ross holes are good, everything else is just bad.

#8 was closed last week when I was there. They said till March I believe.
Perhaps Cory, or others local, can say if that is a regular winter occurance or ?
 

Pinehurst closed #8 for the winter because there just wasn’t enough play to keep it open.  It’s the only course that isn’t linked to the Pinehurst membership, so it’s much easier to close

[rjsimper]

Change to Champion Bermuda.

From what I understand, 5 gets the most member play.

I think the other courses are fine as they are. It's not like they were once world class and fell out of that esteem like #2 did. I suppose they could dust up 4 and take that back to the Ross days.

[Adam Clayman]

Ryan, There are those who feel #4 was very special, but, if I recall, and assume, correctly, too disfigured to recapture, cost effectively.

It isn't a stretch to think DR created great stuff. The terrain is sure perfect, as is the soil.