[PCCraig]

Personally, I love this "look" or feature, when a green/fringe/fairway spills into the next teeing ground:



Assuming you're dealing with a classic golf course with greens and tees close together (say no more than 15-20 paces). How difficult and expensive would it be to implement the feature shown above, assuming there is currently normal green side rough between the green and the tee? Would it be significantly more expensive to maintain?

[Tom_Doak]

Depends on the grass type.

If it's bermuda or paspalum, a closely mown area doesn't cost a lot more to maintain than the same area of short rough.  You have to mow it shorter and a bit more frequently, but you probably don't have to spray it, etc.  The same is true of fescue, which is why we've gone with this look on a lot of our own courses that featured fescue fairways.

On the other hand, if you're on a high-maintenance course in the northeast with bentgrass fairways, those chipping areas are probably going to be quite costly to maintain, and hard to justify as sustainable.  We did one course which featured such areas extensively, and an ecologically-minded friend of mine really whacked me upside the head for it.  And, he was right.  I wouldn't do that again, no matter how cool it looks.  For that matter, if there is a need to walk-mow the area [as in the picture] ... it's hard to justify adding large areas which have to be walk-mowed.

[Bradley Anderson]

Much easier with bermuda grass than it is with bent grass. Holston Hills has connected the fringe cut to the tees that are connected to the fill pad of the green. Old Elm is one of the only clubs that does this in the north with bent grass. With bermuda the expense is in mowing the area one or two times per week more, and with bent grass there is the mowing plus the need to spray fungicides, and aerify/topdress to control thatch, and the proper irrigation set up can be come expensive depending on steepness of slope.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It does have a nice look and feel.

[Mike_Clayton]

Victoria Golf Club in Melbourne have done this the best of all the sandbelt clubs and it has been a real focus in the last few years as the members warmed to the look and the better lies they found when they went over the greens.
It is much easier with couch grass - and the fewer shade issues helps. It makes for much easier maintenance with only one cutting height for surrounds and tees.

[David_Elvins]

Mike,

You have done this at a lot of courses. 

Is it fair  to say that one other benefit is that it spreads wear?  People exit the greens from all different points and leave their golf bags at all different points. 

[Joey Chase]

It is quite expensive to maintain if it is in the north at all.  I interned at a course renovated by Rennaisance that featured several areas like this.  It is really interesting to play and visually attractive, but adds tremendously to the maintenance of the hole.  It all depends on the budget of the course though.  If it cannot be maintained to a proper level, does it really add anything to the hole on a classic parkland course?  I personally found it to be fun, but then again I was not the member being assessed!

[Mike_Clayton]

Dave,

We have - and it does spread the wear.
A couple of months ago we redid the 2nd tee at Metropolitan and used that as a chance to get rid of that silly mound behind the 1st green.
One question was where the path (one the other side of the mound) would go. The answer was that you won't need a path.
It was with some level of scepticism that they agreed and, of course, the path and the mound are not missed and the look is so much better.And, the maintenance is so much easier - leaving time for more important things!!

[Adam Clayman]

The first place I felt the full impact of such a transition, was at Jasper Park. The cost couldn't have been too much since It was only between two holes. But it was very impactful, in an amazing setting. Either the 15th or the 16th (Bad Baby?)  and the next hole. It felt like what I would've assumed or expected, what Augusta would of felt like back when it was all one HOC.

If it's integral to the design, it's worth the cost. Of course all one needs is a gang mower, right?  

[Mark Chaplin]

Surely this set up is cheaper and quicker to maintain?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Seriously? It's not that much more to maintain...the sprayer is already out, the topdresser is already there, the walk mower or triplex is already mowing the tee/approach. Each task is less than 5 minutes extra, square footage 1000ft2 AT THE MOST per addition.
  When building Friars Head, we had this feature on #6/7, #13/14 and judging by pics, I think maybe #1/9/10 hasit now. Maybe #11/12, too. Keith Foster installed there at Colonial during the renovation in 2008-#4/5, #12/13, #14/15, #15/16.
  Its a really cool feature than can be utilized in the right spots, but it's not expensive to maintan this look, regardless of grass.

[Joey Chase]

Having maintained it, I see the daily addition of costs when walk mowing something like this.  It IS different depending on the grass as Tom eluded to.  If you are asked to spend an extra 15 minutes a day on each one of these areas the labor adds up.  Sure the sprayer is already out.  What about the additional costs for pesticide.  It all adds up over time.  Also, to say Colonial and Friars Head can add it, why can't more?  You're talking about courses on the higher end of the budgetary spectrum.  In a time when memberships are down and superintendents are asked to do more with less, is this truly where money should be spent?  Do many superintendents actually feel their money is being well spent on features like this?  If they have the budget, sure they would love it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Joey,
  If the architect designed these areas to be maintained in such a manner, so be it. Judging by the first pic, the green and tees is already walk mowed, so I cant imagine that they are REALLY concerned about a few extra dollars to maintain a designed area. 
  You can ALWAYS state that its little things like this add up...so does painting cups every day, edging curbs, blowing out bunkers, using kiln dried sand, spray hawking greens, ect. As long at there are not 18 of these areas on a course, just a few, you wont see the cost. An extra 15 minutes, 3 days a week to mow? There is always a little extra in the sprayer. One extra load in the topdresser? All to have a cool, designed feature as such? Youre making a maintain out of a mole hill.
  The few extra dollars it costs to maintain is more than worth it to have a feature as such. Very cool when used in the appropriate areas.

[Joey Chase]

I don't think I am making a big deal out of it, however the question is it costly to maintain?  I say it is.  Is it a cool feature, I say yes it is as well.  At the course I worked that had these features it definitely did add up.  You'll not find a superintendent in the northern midwest that would say otherwise.  Would I say it isn't worth doing, nobody said that.  It really all depends on what you have to work with, I guess. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

I don't think I am making a big deal out of it, however the question is it costly to maintain?  I say it is.  Is it a cool feature, I say yes it is as well.  At the course I worked that had these features it definitely did add up.  You'll not find a superintendent in the northern midwest that would say otherwise.  Would I say it isn't worth doing, nobody said that.  It really all depends on what you have to work with, I guess. 

To each their own, I suppose. Considering I am from the northern Midwest with a father with 40 years experience in maintenace and grow in, I don't agree and I'd bet, I mean know, the unique feature far outweighs the small cost. If it was so expensive to maintain, you wouldn't see so many renovations and restorations trying to incorporate the feature.

[Randy Thompson]

Joey,
Welcome and thanks for your views on the subject matter, most of us can and will respect your valuable insight. You will learn Anthony is Anthony and pretty set in his conclusions and opinions, especially when he"knows" and he always knows!

[Matt_Cohn]

Personally, I love this "look" or feature, when a green/fringe/fairway spills into the next teeing ground:



Assuming you're dealing with a classic golf course with greens and tees close together (say no more than 15-20 paces). How difficult and expensive would it be to implement the feature shown above, assuming there is currently normal green side rough between the green and the tee? Would it be significantly more expensive to maintain?

Where is that?

[PCCraig]

Matt,

Vesper CC

[Joey Chase]

I don't think I am making a big deal out of it, however the question is it costly to maintain?  I say it is.  Is it a cool feature, I say yes it is as well.  At the course I worked that had these features it definitely did add up.  You'll not find a superintendent in the northern midwest that would say otherwise.  Would I say it isn't worth doing, nobody said that.  It really all depends on what you have to work with, I guess.  

To each their own, I suppose. Considering I am from the northern Midwest with a father with 40 years experience in maintenace and grow in, I don't agree and I'd bet, I mean know, the unique feature far outweighs the small cost. If it was so expensive to maintain, you wouldn't see so many renovations and restorations trying to incorporate the feature.

If it was so inexpensive to maintain why is it not more prevalent? Having been raised on a course by a superintendent father myself, I respect your point of view.  Is this a common feature on renovations in cool season markets?

[Joey Chase]

At the Renaissance Club they have the putting green as the first tee...  Why not add that cool feature to more courses?

[Mark Saltzman]

At the Renaissance Club they have the putting green as the first tee...  Why not add that cool feature to more courses?

Joey, they have the same feature at ACCC.   Agree, very cool. Maybe someone could post a picture...

[Joey Chase]

At the Renaissance Club they have the putting green as the first tee...  Why not add that cool feature to more courses?

Joey, they have the same feature at ACCC.   Agree, very cool. Maybe someone could post a picture...

Forgive me, I am new to this.  It was an attempt at being sarcastic.  Renaissance has the luxury of having fine fescue turf that is easier to maintain, and more quickly recovers.  I do remember it at ACCC and loved the feature however!

[Mark Saltzman]

At the Renaissance Club they have the putting green as the first tee...  Why not add that cool feature to more courses?

Joey, they have the same feature at ACCC.   Agree, very cool. Maybe someone could post a picture...

Forgive me, I am new to this.  It was an attempt at being sarcastic.  Renaissance has the luxury of having fine fescue turf that is easier to maintain, and more quickly recovers.  I do remember it at ACCC and loved the feature however!

Joey, understood.  You forgot to use the sarcasm font.

[Joey Chase]

 

At the Renaissance Club they have the putting green as the first tee...  Why not add that cool feature to more courses?

Joey, they have the same feature at ACCC.   Agree, very cool. Maybe someone could post a picture...

Forgive me, I am new to this.  It was an attempt at being sarcastic.  Renaissance has the luxury of having fine fescue turf that is easier to maintain, and more quickly recovers.  I do remember it at ACCC and loved the feature however!

Joey, understood.  You forgot to use the sarcasm font.

[Jonathan Decker]

Depends on the grass type.

If it's bermuda or paspalum, a closely mown area doesn't cost a lot more to maintain than the same area of short rough.  You have to mow it shorter and a bit more frequently, but you probably don't have to spray it, etc.  The same is true of fescue, which is why we've gone with this look on a lot of our own courses that featured fescue fairways.

On the other hand, if you're on a high-maintenance course in the northeast with bentgrass fairways, those chipping areas are probably going to be quite costly to maintain, and hard to justify as sustainable.  We did one course which featured such areas extensively, and an ecologically-minded friend of mine really whacked me upside the head for it.  And, he was right.  I wouldn't do that again, no matter how cool it looks.  For that matter, if there is a need to walk-mow the area [as in the picture] ... it's hard to justify adding large areas which have to be walk-mowed.

Tom,

I've seen this quite a bit at Milwaukee CC and North Shore GC.  It looked great, especially around Milwaukee's 9th green/patio/10th tee area.  Was this something you implemented or did it precede your work there?

Jonathan

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