[Garland Bayley]

It reads as coming from someone who has little left to say, but who has to keep saying something anyway.  

If it was coming from me (or other such slubonvicks - thanks Bob!) it would be understandable/expected.  Coming from RW, it suggests that there may in fact be nothing left to say -- at least not for a while.


Peter

Chuck Noll might say it's time for RW to get on with his life's work. Love that guy...

George,

Did you get your computer back up, or a new one?

[Terry Lavin]

Well I disagree but he made some good points in the manner of a cable news show with dissenting views. I was with Whitten for the opening of Bandon Trails. He was plenty complimentary of the resort. I see this as a fun magazine debate, not a slam.

[Michael George]

Below are Whitten's response to Matty G's questions:


I'd also have two follow-up questions for Whitten:

<sub>1. If Bandon doesn't cut it, then what IS your favorite U.S.-based resort?

2. If Jobs played golf, where would he have taken an annual buddies trip? 

--Matty G.


*Whitten filed a reply to my questions . . .

OK, Matt. Here are my answers:

1. As you know, I don't play favorites, so I don't have a favorite resort. But if I did, that wouldn't make it the Greatest Golf Resort in the World. I love some aspects of Bandon Dunes, just as I love parts of Pinehurst, Kohler, Pebble Beach Companies and others, but don't find any of them to be Perfect. The point of my column is that the book on Steve Jobs urged me to think like Jobs, a perfectionist. The perfectionist in me finds flaws in a lot of operations. (And in my own work, by the way.)

2. Had Steve Jobs played golf, he had enough money to build his own golf retreat just for himself and his buddies. In would probably have been in Hawaii (where he seemed to like to vacation) or in Northern California. And he would have driven the architect, superintendent and staff nuts with his demands. He's the guy who wanted the circuit boards in his computers to be "beautiful," even though no consumer would ever see them. He would have wanted beautiful drainage systems, spotless maintenance facilities, no power lines or buildings or traffic visible from his golf course. Or, probably, other golfers.

--Ron Whitten</sub>

[Terry Lavin]

Bandon is my favorite for many reasons but I acknowledge that there are aspects of Pinehurst or Pebble that are superior.  I doubt that Whitten is really saying more than he might be tiring of Bandonmania. Fair enough, but just let me know when the next 4-5 course Oceanside links style course opens anywhere in America. Uh, never.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Clearly Ron had a bad week. It gives one another reason to question GD ratings when you read this tripe.

[Ronald Montesano]

Oscar Wilde, they say, commented "There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is NOT being talked about."

If Whitten is not writing, then no one is talking about him.

On a site that I know, two guys are spenidng 2012 playing "He Said, HE SAID" on topics ranging from players to courses to equipment. One of them will always draw the short straw, as RW did here (unless its basis is even more insidious, as some suggest.)

[Frank M]

The article is missing a conclusion to the "greatest" argument. Whitten states his disagreement with Bandon Dunes being labelled the "greatest golf resort in the world," and by the end, his tone changes to the notion of perfection. It seems he thinks greatest = perfect. Whitten jumps back and forth between the ideas of greatest and perfection as if they equate to the same thing. It seems to me there is a big misunderstanding on Whitten's part as to the meanings of greatest and perfect. Being that greatest does not mean it is perfect, it simply means it is the best of the bunch.

[Will MacEwen]

One thing I like is the cell towers. A very convenient and often over-looked feature, if we're nitpicking.

Frankly if there is food, shelter, and golf, the quality of golf takes precedence to me.

We don't expect a young guy like you to have a refined pallet.

Alex excused himself from breakfast with John Kirk and myself to throw up, and you don't see him complaining about the food.

[William_G]

One thing I like is the cell towers. A very convenient and often over-looked feature, if we're nitpicking.

Frankly if there is food, shelter, and golf, the quality of golf takes precedence to me.

We don't expect a young guy like you to have a refined pallet.

Alex excused himself from breakfast with John Kirk and myself to throw up, and you don't see him complaining about the food.

hahahaha

[Alex Miller]

One thing I like is the cell towers. A very convenient and often over-looked feature, if we're nitpicking.

Frankly if there is food, shelter, and golf, the quality of golf takes precedence to me.

We don't expect a young guy like you to have a refined pallet.

Alex excused himself from breakfast with John Kirk and myself to throw up, and you don't see him complaining about the food.

I...I cannot deny this. The food was good, the first time 

[Brett_Morrissy]

He did say Perfect.

Bandon is certainly not perfect, probably not a perfect one out there.

BUT, Barnbougle is better.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I’ve recently read the Jobs biography and I think RW has it wrong.
Jobs would have loved the idea of Bandon Dunes. My take is Jobs felt creating something beautiful at the intersection of creativity and technology was the key to good products. He did not focus just on one part of that, beauty was key, but the products had to be highly functional as well. Functionality was very important, but it had to be beautiful as well. After all that, it had to be simple. “Simple is the new sophistication” was his saying and he believed very much that it took great design to marry simplicity, beauty, and functionality together into something successful. Bandon Dunes has the Jobs’ pillars of success in spades.

Furthermore, I believe Jobs would have loved the idea of BD. Remember BD was created during an ugly period of excess in golf development. 10 Million dollar courses with extravagant eye candy and multi million dollar maintenance requirements was the norm to create a note worthy project. Kaiser went against the grain and created something completely different. Jobs would have loved that. Jobs is quoted often in the bio as saying something along the lines of “the consumer doesn’t know what he wants until I give it to him” He didn’t believe in market studies or focus groups. He felt if he designed and built products that were simple, functional, and beautiful, then Apple would be successful.

I have to believe Kaiser felt similar about his development of Bandon Dunes. For sure industry “experts” would have told him to build something more mainstream closer to population centers. But it seems Kaiser felt if he built something great (simple, beautiful, functional) on a special piece of land, it might work.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Posted by: Mac Plumart 
Insert Quote
He says he disagrees about Bandon being the #1 golf resort in the world.  Okay...let's run with that...what could be better?  Resort to me implies public with accomodations.

Pinehurst?
Sea Island?
Kiawah?
Kohler?
Pebble Beach?
Is Cape Kidnappers a resort?
Barnbougle?

From what I've seen, Bandon is the best resort.  But I haven't seen the last four on my list.
 

Ca[pe Kidnappers is astonishing, but ultra-pricey..relatively speaking makes Bandon seem like the local muni.  About 10 grand for a couple to spend 3 nights on property, breakfast and dinner, and 2 rounds of golf.  Then again--just 1 GC, not 4.

Posted by: Steve Salmen 
Insert Quote
The last time I was at Bandon was two years ago so this may have changed.

If there is really one thing missing at the facilities, it's a drying room.  We don't really have them here but nearly every club in Scotland has a room in the clubhouse that has a very strong dehumidifier.  Because it rains so much, a drying room would be a very welcome addition by the golfers.

I remember how nearly every player's clubs were in the drying room at the 2009 RC at Renaissance.

And while we are on the subject of esoterica---I love Bandon, have played maybe 15--18 rounds there over two visits, but was slightly dismayed to note that the main feature in their small gym is...treadmills!  Now I ask you..after tromping around for 4 to 8 hours, are many/any of the guests putting in their miles on a moving walkway?
 IMO--What that little gym space needs is a whole bunch of floor mats so tight/tired golfers can lay down and get themselves stretched out..the better to do battle again the next day, or at least get themselves loose enough to make that long drive back to PDX

[Adam Clayman]

One re-ocurring motif in RW's analysis is how he wants to ruin the natural beauty of a place, by moving the clubhouse, nearer to that natural beauty.

No Stoppers seems reasonable enough. Some drunken idiot guest would probably flood the place out, if they had them.

[Bill McKinley]

In honor of Ran's 2012 post, everyone is entitled to his opinion and certainly he has seen more golf courses than me.  Further, I respect his knowledge on golf course architecture.  However, I could not disagree more on each of his points.

First, I question the reason for his post.  Egos obviously come into play with people in his position.  To my knowledge, he has never been consulted on anything Bandon.  Did he get upset that Brad Klein was consulted on Old MacDonald and not him?  I have no idea, but it certainly appears that he has an agenda with this article.  

Now with respect to his reviews of the courses, what is the problem with the wetland on #13 at Bandon Dunes or #17 at Old Macdonald?  I simply don't understand why having a water hazard is a problem?  No strategy at Pacific Dunes?  What would he call #6 and #16?  You have tons of options on both holes.  As I have said before, I think #14 at Bandon Trails is a litmus test for people - if you don't like it, you are a "fair" or "test" guy and if you do like it , you are a "fun" or "options" guy - it is my favorite hole on that course.  Being that Golf Digest has always rated difficult courses higher than fun courses, I assume Ron is a "test" guy.  Lastly, if he says an opportunity was missed at Old Mac, tell us where he would have done it and what holes would have to be changed.  If he would change #7 or #15, then I think he is wrong.   I am sure that Tom would have loved the hole he mentions, but the routing has to work together and he has to give up something.

Re: the accomdations, I stayed at the Lily Pond, the cheapest rooms they have and I thought they were much nicer than the reviews.   In addition, Bandon has never sold itself as a spa.  It is about the golf.  I don't need flowers or bath robes in my room.

Same with the food and food service.  The food is good, especially the breakfasts and the service was fine.  However, again, Bandon does not try to be a 5 star restaurant with ala carte service. Also, I don't know if he ever ate at Pacific Dunes, which has a great and diverse menu.  Their food is everything I need without fluff that just costs more.

Lastly, he may have a point on the caddies.  Our group of 28 had 3-4 great caddies - Harry Lusk, Pat Fox, Adam Araneo - and many ok caddies.  However, a couple of the caddies had real attitudes and almost seemed to think that they were doing us a favor by carrying the bag.  Unfortunately, I was unable to use Joe for my trip.

In sum, I just don't think Ron understands the purest appeal to Bandon.  Maybe he has been pampored too long on visits to other places.  Kind of like the choice between country clubs.  Do you want the place with a great golf course and laid back approach with a modest clubhouse or do you want the blue blood club which the huge clubhouse and "social be seen" atmosphere.  I wonder what he would say about the club I play at where they leave large steaks in a cooler and you have to cook it yourself on the grille.

Great post Michael.  Great post!And it would be very interesting to see what Ron's take would be on your place! 

[jeffwarne]

One re-ocurring motif in RW's analysis is how he wants to ruin the natural beauty of a place, by moving the clubhouse, nearer to that natural beauty.

No Stoppers seems reasonable enough. Some drunken idiot guest would probably flood the place out, if they had them.

Two things jump out at me.

1. RW wanted everybody to know he'd read a book by Steve Jobs
2. He's still enamored with the crap he wrote about and glorified during the crap years of golf architecture, and hates the thought of being left behind and bascially irrelevant (What? no signature hole?)

[Garland Bayley]

I’ve recently read the Jobs biography and I think RW has it wrong.
Jobs would have loved the idea of Bandon Dunes. My take is Jobs felt creating something beautiful at the intersection of creativity and technology was the key to good products. He did not focus just on one part of that, beauty was key, but the products had to be highly functional as well. Functionality was very important, but it had to be beautiful as well. After all that, it had to be simple. “Simple is the new sophistication” was his saying and he believed very much that it took great design to marry simplicity, beauty, and functionality together into something successful. Bandon Dunes has the Jobs’ pillars of success in spades.

Furthermore, I believe Jobs would have loved the idea of BD. Remember BD was created during an ugly period of excess in golf development. 10 Million dollar courses with extravagant eye candy and multi million dollar maintenance requirements was the norm to create a note worthy project. Kaiser went against the grain and created something completely different. Jobs would have loved that. Jobs is quoted often in the bio as saying something along the lines of “the consumer doesn’t know what he wants until I give it to him” He didn’t believe in market studies or focus groups. He felt if he designed and built products that were simple, functional, and beautiful, then Apple would be successful.

I have to believe Kaiser felt similar about his development of Bandon Dunes. For sure industry “experts” would have told him to build something more mainstream closer to population centers. But it seems Kaiser felt if he built something great (simple, beautiful, functional) on a special piece of land, it might work.

Good post Don. I concur.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

The simplistic aspect of how Jobs' designed something is more in line with how golf was meant to be.

Steve Jobs + Bandon Dunes = "Golf as it was NOT meant to be"

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael George,
I HATE this quote from Whitten:  ". The point of my column is that the book on Steve Jobs urged me to think like Jobs, a perfectionist. "

Being a perfectionist is means never being happy and always falling short.  He must be a miserable man, which makes his lack of appreciation for Bandon so sad.

[Michael George]

Dan - I agree.  Further, I think his reading of Jobs is wrong.  Jobs was not a perfectionist on all things - just those things that he felt were critical.  Otherwise, Apple would have never issued products that did not address every issue that the consumer wanted. 

Same with Bandon.  Keiser was never a perfectionist on all issues, such as having the best clubhouses.  Otherwise, he never would have allowed trailers to last so long out there.  Keiser tried to be a perfectionist on the golf and in my opinion, he got closer than any other person ever at a public resort.

I honestly do not think that RW understands the average, avid retail golfer.  Golfers want unique golf experiences on great golf courses.  Most golfers want adequate food, drink and accommodations when they travel.  However, they are spending enough money to get there and play golf and don't want to pay for 5 star dining with ala carte service that just cost a lot more.  Mike Keiser has always understood this because, from what I have read of him, that is who he is. 

RW is certainly entitled to his opinion and in his world, it is likely correct.  However, I don't think he reflects the average, avid golfer, which is a scary thing for a magazine editor and is why his article is so widely criticized in this thread.

[William_G]

The simplistic aspect of how Jobs' designed something is more in line with how golf was meant to be.

Steve Jobs + Bandon Dunes = "Golf as it was NOT meant to be"

hahaha, yes Jobs and Bandon does not compute. But the channeling simplisticy it does.

Hey Emil,

You live in PDX?

[Bill_McBride]

Those who say the lodging options at Bandon are merely adequate to mediocre must usually stay in a Ritz-Carlton.  I have always found the double rooms in the Lily Pad and Chrome Lake cottages to be large, well-appointed and very clean.   The single rooms in the lodge are not huge, but well set up.   

[Dan Herrmann]

Michael - WELL said.  I'd be happy with Best Western lodging and a great golf course than 5-star lodging/spa and a really good golf course.  I don't know about Whitten, but I have a golf budget.  Too expensive, and I can't be there. 

[Terry Lavin]

The lodging is better at Pebble. The nightlife is better at Pebble/Carmel. Both may be better at Pinehurst or Harbourtown for that matter. Some could surely argue that #2 or Pebble is superior to any course at BD. but if you're a bit of a purist, if you're a believer in the grand possibilities of seaside golf without carts and if you believe that one man's vision could fundamentally alter the landscape of American golf, then Bandon Dunes is far more than mediocre.

It is magical.

[Tom_Doak]

Whatever the reason behind Ron's post, some of the speculation here is just plain wrong.  For one thing, I know that Mike Keiser generally likes Ron a lot, and has asked his opinion of various things about Bandon in the past.  Don't forget, Mike asked Ron if the first course at Bandon Dunes couldn't be designed as part of a GOLF DIGEST competition -- and Ron had the sense to tell him that was nuts, that he should get the best architect he could for a site like that.  [Ron later told me that in hindsight he wished that he had just asked if he could design it himself.]

We also invited Ron to be one of the consultants for Old Macdonald, but he declined on the basis of conflict of interest.

Perhaps he needed to decline so he could write the occasional grumpy article about Bandon, so he won't be accused of being a cheerleader for it otherwise.  But, hell, this is at least the tenth different article I've seen from Ron over the years that I was pretty sure was really the opposite of his true feelings.

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