[Sean_A]

While a big fan of matchplay, I am not convinced I would want to belong to a club which dictated the game of golf I play other than rules about when 2ball, 3ball and 4ball games are played.  I think speed of play can largely be controlled by allowing only 2balls off the course until 9:30/10:00, then 3 balls for a few hours and 4balls in the afternoon.  There is nothing worse for pace of play than allowing 4balls on the course right out of the gate. 

Perhaps the handicap system helps matchplay remain ingrained in the UK, but when I lived in the States I never worried so much about the handicapping and played almost exclusive matchplay.  Although, as folks have noted, US golfers don't have the complete idea as they practically refuse to pick up and effectively concede a hole.  In other words, their mind set still isn't focused on match play - it is focused on medal with the matchplay as a side bit. 

Ciao   

[Mike Policano]

Mike,

Happy New Year!  I think Ally hit the nail on the head. In the US, the handicap system as currently enforced, undercuts match play. As you know, in most clubs, members play nassaus three or five ways.  This is, of course, match play.  However, the GHIN handicap system requires all scores to be posted. So we have the oddity of playing match play but being required to post medal play scores. This is quite curious since a player may take big risks in a match based on the opppnent's position that a player wouldn't take in medal play.

The handicap system in the US, arguably, may reduce fun. Go play Ballyneal. You can't post a score since there is no slope and rating.  You are free to play any mix of tees whenever you play.  It adds to the fun one has playing there. Try playing the forward tee on one hole and the back on another hole anywhere else; it doesn't happen. "We have to post a score."

If the GHIN handicap system required only "medal play" scores to be posted, match play (nassaus) would be quicker and more fun, (e.g. previous hole winner picks next tee box). This arguably  makes a lot of sense vs the current system of playing match play nassaus and posting medal play scores. How many times has the winner of a naussau on 16 finish double bogey, triple bogey resulting in a higher postable score? I know, they lost focus once the match was over. This is just one misguided soul's thoughts.

Cheers    

[Brett_Morrissy]

Sean:
While a big fan of matchplay, I am not convinced I would want to belong to a club which dictated the game of golf I play other than rules about when 2ball, 3ball and 4ball games are played.  I think speed of play can largely be controlled by allowing only 2balls off the course until 9:30/10:00, then 3 balls for a few hours and 4balls in the afternoon.  There is nothing worse for pace of play than allowing 4balls on the course right out of the gate. 

Is this the way 2,3 & 4 balls work in the UK, as you've listed above?

It seems a great way to control pace of play, if there is room on the time sheet and member demand.

Or, do some clubs have 2 ball all day or 3 ball all day, etc.

And at the clubs that do this, is there still demand for 4 ball games?

How often do you play scored stroke rounds - and are they just played to manage handicaps?
Thanks

[Mark Chaplin]

At Hankley Common two balls only tee off the first from 8-10. Fourballs tee off the tenth from 8-9 when they come around to the first they alternate with fourballs starting from 10am. It means those who want a 3-3.5 hour round tee off the first between 8-10 in two ball.

It is wrong to think UK golf is exclusively matchplay there are plenty of medals and stablefords. However in my experience it would be unusual for four guys playing a friendly to play lowest strokeplay score wins.

[Carl Rogers]

If want to watch a painful slow play round, then get behind a Match Play round between a pair of 20+ handicappers who will not concede anything.

[Kalen Braley]

If want to watch a painful slow play round, then behind a Match Play round between a pair of 20+ handicappers who will not concede anything.

Hey now, I resemble....err resent that remark!!   

[Mike Sweeney]

I personally would love to play match play more, but just have a really hard time finding anyone else to do the same.

Kalen,

I am probably most disappointed in your post as you are the target market in this type of model. Public golfer who loves golf and needs a new group of friends.   With 500 members, you will find partners, and the price point will drop to a level where you can play the golf that you want to play without having to fall in love 24/7 with your club.

The realities of this stage of life for me is I get an occasional hall pass from The Boss. When I do get the last minute free pass, I head to New Haven Connecticut to play Yale Golf Club. Despite the name and the endowment behind the name, it is probably the MOST democratic club (not a political statement - see Bill Buckley) that I know of . I have played with NBA players, professional golfers and baseball players, guys with their last names on buildings at Yale and guys who literally clean out rat cages at the research labs at Yale Medical Center. The course and the staff drive the "vibe" of the place and you would feel perfectly comfortable at Yale Golf Course after two rounds of match play.

Other notes for the Match Club model:

* Bob Crosby was not on the call today but he is equally part of this concept. I have had a dinner with Bob at a Dixie Cup and I need to play a round of golf with that guy. Perhaps at Mike Young's Long Shadow which should be a candidate for this model.

* If this model ever works out, I would love to have Sean Arble do a "Winter Tour" profile, but he is NOT our target market !!  

* I would love to hear from Mike Young as I think he understands golf better than most.

* The USGA should adjust their handicap system. Rather that worry about a "course handicap" (basically how many strokes over par a player should score) they should have "player rating" which is based on how you play against other players. My guess is JC jones and I would be in VERY different brackets.  

* See Gib's old post which was 2 economic cycles ago: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=18088.0;wap2

[Jeffrey Prest]

Reading Geoff Shackelford's excellent Grounds for Golf, recently, I was struck in particular by the way he (citing Alister MacKenzie's views in support) argued how matchplay helps golfers appreciate a course more, because the drama of each one-eighteenth part isn't tarnished by the chastening assessment of the whole that awaits in the scorer's hut.

Every quirky bounce can be more easily borne, every risk-and-reward challenge met with gusto, thanks to the simple mercy of being allowed to start each hole with a clean sheet.

I had no idea that the culture of turning a card in was so predominant in the States. One day, I hope, an anthropologist will write the definitive book on where the American obsession with statistics comes from...

  

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

You got me pegged my friend...and yes one of the bummers of living in Spokane and Salt Lake previously....was there just aren't/weren't very many fellow GCA'ers around to get some good match play in.

At the moment, I have been very tempted to join a club, given the decrease in prices, but am still waffling a bit.  Probably my biggest deterent is the fact that I really am a variety guy, so the thought of playing most of my rounds at one course seems a bit off from the outside looking in.

Recently though, I've been playing with a new guy I met at work who is willing to do match play too, but given he's so much better than me, he gives me a stroke on most holes to keep it fair.  But alas he still manages to beat me. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Sometimes I don't know who the hell you people are.  I have played over 40 years and have never once in my life had someone tell me that they would prefer a stroke play game over match play.  One of the keys is that I will always let them tell me how many strokes they want and never take any myself.  Playing a dollar a hole makes perfect sense, playing a dollar a stroke sounds like torture.

I would love to hear an example of a stroke play focused club.  The handicap thing is simple with ESQ.  You lose a hole and take a double.

[David_Tepper]

Brett Morrissy -

Regarding your question about 2-, 3- and 4-ball play at golf clubs in the UK, I can tell you that Royal Dornoch allows only 2-balls to tee off from 7:00am (the 1st tee time of the day) till 9:00am and then allows 4-ball play for the rest of the day.

It is a real pleasure to go out before 9:00am as a 2-ball, get around the course in 3 hours or so and then have the balance of the day free to do something else (or play another round ).

DT  

[Mike Sweeney]

I would love to hear an example of a stroke play focused club.  The handicap thing is simple with ESQ.  You lose a hole and take a double.

Some of us actually work:

Equitable Stroke Control Chart
Course Handicap    Maximum Score
0-9    Double Bogey
10-19    7
20-29    8
30-39    9
40 or more    10

[Patrick_Mucci]

If it was me I would remove the Par as well. Par is pretty irrelevant in a match play situation in my opinion.

Then how would you determine stroke allotment in match play ?

And, how would you establish/maintain your handicap in accordance with USGA guidelines ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike,

I received the following email this morning from Royal Cinque Ports. Considering your all-matchplay club idea I thought you might find this interesting:

Dear Member,

You may have seen in the new fixture list for 2012 that the Club is starting a monthly Saturday roll up. Many members have requested a weekend roll up in the past and it is hoped that it will allow members to simply turn up and enjoy a friendly competition once a month with a varied group of players. Here is some information about how it will work.

1. One Saturday per month throughout the year there will be a two ball singles stableford men’s roll up, usually from about 8:30 to 9:30. Dates and times are published in the fixture list. The first one is on 14th January, 8:21 - 9:24.

2. There will be a start sheet on the day in the pro shop. As you arrive at the Club put your name on the sheet in the next available slot and play at your allotted time with the person who has signed up next to you. This mechanism has been used for many years by the mid week roll up and works very well.

3. There will be a pot in the pro shop for a £1 entry fee. The entry fee will be optional but only players who have contributed to the kitty may win a cash prize.

4. In the event of there being a mixture of yellow and blue tee players in the roll up there will be a separate competition for each.

5. If there are an odd number of players then the last group should play as a three ball. It is important that they keep up with the group in front.

6. The roll up competitions will not be handicap qualifying.

7. In time it may emerge that one or two members end up managing the roll up. Initially, however, the office will collect the kitty from the pro shop and the cards from members as they complete their rounds and announce the winners and prizes at lunch time.

On a slightly different subject, please note that the monthly Club handicap qualifying competitions will alternate between stableford and medal format in 2012.


Note that there are "monthly Club handicap qualifying competitions" and that half of them will be stableford! How do you think that would go over at most American clubs?

Also, as Sean says, limiting groups to two balls early in the day is the key to fast rounds. Most Americans don't consider it "real" golf if they are not playing in a four-ball, so I can imagine the screaming if a local club were to start limiting Saturday morning times to two balls!!!

[Sean_A]

Unless you are member of a club, I think the bottom line is one is stuck playing with a card in his hand.  I only managed, after 10 years, to assemble a very small group (not big enough to sustain a weekly 4ball) of six guys who were willing to play matchplay...properly. 

Whitty is right, loads of comps in the UK are (necessarily) with a card in hand.  At Burnham there are plenty of matchplay knockouts including the club, but there is a weekly Sat comp which is Stableford except for one week in the month which is medal.  The medal is always less supported than the Stablefords and unquestionably slower. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I spoke with Tom Paul earlier today and he updated me on some the work he is doing for/with the USGA Archives. We covered a range of topics and after we hung up, I realized that Tom had a pretty good idea somewhere in that conversation.

Is there a market for a Match Play Golf Club (public and/or private) for American golf? I say American because much of the golf played overseas is still match play. It is part of the culture.

Here in the US, for a variety of reasons, we are a stroke play culture. The “arms race” for a lower score has pushed technology versus golf course architecture to the limits.  Reality of stroke play is it takes 4+ hours for a foursome, and that is a burden in the modern world for a family guy.

Thus, is there a market for match play FOCUSED golf club in certain markets?

Mike Keiser created a walking only golf resort in the middle of nowhere. Is there not room in each market for a golf club where:

*       Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday morning are ALL match play. That means you lose a hole, you pick up your ball and move to the next hole.
•   3 hour rounds at peak times are the norm.
•   More relationships are created between golfers due to the intimacy of match play.
•   Each match can play a variety of tees.
•   The Pro/Competition Committee can introduce a variety of matches Fourball, foursomes, singles…..to keep it interesting.
*      With more players able to play at peak times due to shortened rounds, you could have more members and reduce cost.
•   Public golf might be tough, but again Bandon broke the mold in the US.

Thoughts?

Without reading any posts, Id say NO. In this climate you need to stick to tried and tested methods, yopu MUST cater for all aspects of the market and try and get business not reject any.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We play a lot of stablefords in the UK when there are more than 4, If 4 or less than match play is 90%, rarely would a 4 go out together and play medal.

Stableford is a fairly quick way of playing, since anything more than a nett one over is a pick up. If thats the purpose to try and speed play then Stableford over medal wins...... Golf is slow for other reasons though.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I find it interesting to note that no one has mentioned one important factor about match play,at least in certain clubs in the US- it's a money game. At my former club, many members frequently played a  Nassau, either 3 or 5 ways, for various sums. There were many members who refused or didn't like playing a money game. Both groups co-existed. The club had  year long individual and 2 person better ball championships at match play.

I think there would be an uproar at many US clubs if mandatory match play on a regular basis was even suggested.

[Mark Pearce]

Steve,

It doesn't need to be, you know.  Nothing in the rules says it has to be played for money.  Nothing stops you playing medal or stableford for money, either.

[BCrosby]

Steve is right. Wagering is at the heart of the appeal of match play. It's a better format for betting. I'd guess that has been true since time immemorial. That's a feature, not a glitch.

Bob

[Mark Pearce]

Bob,

Of course it's a better format for wagering, if you want to have a bet.  That doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a match without betting, though.  All of the social golf I play is matchplay.  Less than half involves money (or other consideration) changing hands.

[Jim Eder]

Patrick,

Sorry, I was referring to the scorecard posted from Friar's Head. If the holes are not handicapped or have yardage on the scorecard why even bother with par? Par can be very arbitrary (I don't care what the card calls a 495yd hole, it is how I play it that matters to me).

Your points are spot on though. There would have to be a course rating to have the handicap system and of course the handicapping of holes.

I should have been clearer on my post that I was referring to the posted scorecard (which I just love) rather generically to all golf. I love everything about Friar's even the picture policy...........................

[John Kavanaugh]

The key to getting a match play game at a new club or with strangers is to plant a little seed money.  Your first impression is very important and nobody likes a sand bagger or someone who has to have the best end of the deal.  Lose seven or eight bucks, smile and you will have friends for life.

I accidently screwed up in my first big morning hunt at Norwood Hills as a new member.  Birdied the last three holes to shoot one under and win, not some of the money, all the money in the pool as a 6 handicap.  It was not a good first impression.  I've seen the same thing with new members who win the first member guest that they play.  Trust me, if there is any place on earth where you can buy friends it's on the golf course.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,

Of course, match play doesn't have to be a money game but at my former club there was a large contingent of guys who played for money because "it made them play and concentrate better ."  If a suggestion was made to this group to play a match for just a beer after the game, there would be considerable laughter.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mark,

Of course, match play doesn't have to be a money game but at my former club there was a large contingent of guys who played for money because "it made them play and concentrate better ."  If a suggestion was made to this group to play a match for just a beer after the game, there would be considerable laughter.

The problem is, who just drinks a beer.  Yesterday I won $111 in the middle and lost $80 on the side but was stuck with a $90 bar bill.  The big winner in the middle has to buy the drinks and if you win more than $100 you have to buy two.

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