Assuming no debt, what should be the cost per round at Ballyneal?

[Tim Bert]

"A member brings an average 6.5 guests per visit."

That's the most interesting thing I have read on this thread. That is a surprisingly high average to me.

[Ben Sims]

I'll go in with open eyes and an open mind as to what's changed.  I only ask you treat me with the same open mindedness.

Fair enough Jay.  Here's a post by you with a response by Jim Colton.  Please elaborate.  I am honestly wondering how BN and DR are bad for the future of golf.  If you would be so kind as to expound on that thought and please don't link your blog.  I'm being concilatory here.  I really want to know.  

Jeff, Tim I do not agree.  Again if you take that argument to its conclusion. it's bad for the game.  To not allow for cost is to leave certain people behind. Golf is one o the few sports you can play from cradle grave, and the lifeblood of the game isn't the country club guy with the "{have clubs, will travel" attitude, it's the family down the street all playing together on Sunday afternoon on a beautiful fall day, creating memories that last a lifetime and inpiring a love of the game in the younger generation of kids they are raising.

Who said this a zero-sum game? I can and will support both groups.

??

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Jerry,
I think the difference here, as indicated in my post, is that the kind of golf we are talking about here, is experience based, that is, members and guests visit these places, not for car park golf, arrive, shoes on, play, get back in the car and leave.

For the model that we were discussing above, IMO, was in regard to a overnight stay, great golf, great friends, hospitality and experience, what you eat and drink at this kind of place can have a major impact on the level of enjoyment of the experience and most importantly, if and how often you wish to return.

Barnbougle Dunes is a superb example of this working.

[noonan]

I understand if you have a captive audience ...the golfers must buy your product.
And I have been at places where you want to dine there.

You guys answered my question.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jerry,

Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.

I was not a fan of analogies --- I am now converted.

[Chris Johnston]

Jerry:

Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here.  That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.   We really do take the experience we provide quite seriously.  There are no other alternatives within an hour drive and those are more in the Red Lobster grade.  I guess you don't have to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, or have a beverage.  But, if you do, here is where you get it.  We don't have people come for the day then go home and there are no alternatives.  Hooker County, Nebraska has less than 1,000 residents.  We aren't a Country Club in the traditional sense.  We are a "destination" golf club, and I would even add "very remote" to the term.  If people leave to have dinner, they are on their way to Sand Hills, Prairie, Ballyneal, or an airport to return home.  I think that's why the guys who love these place love them.  There is a real comraderie and real sense of place at all of these clubs.  Bandon does it in a public model.

Sands Hills has a magnificent golf course but few would argue the experience isn't even better.  Most would say the same for Dismal River and Ballyneal.  I've had some of the best meals ever at Sand Hills and Dismal River - Tom and Don have to bring a bigger pair of pants if they stay a few weeks.   Special is special, even if it may not be special to everyone.

Again, I assume it is the same at Bandon and Ballyneal. 

It isn't promotion, its just very special.

[Chris Johnston]

Jerry,

Going to Dismal without consideration of food and beverage would be like taking a fishing pole on a cruise ship.

I was not a fan of analogies --- I am now converted.

Mike

Its runner up to Mike Young's "couldn't sell snatch on a troop train" for me.

[Mark_F]

Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here.  That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country. 

I don't know why you would even bother with golf if you serve up breakfast like this:



French toast with caramelised banana?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Value......what is value???
Always a very difficult if not impossible question to answer with so many different inputs and modes of justification.
I can see what Jay was trying to say, as I can equally understand those who objected to his stance but in essence the difference in opinions between the two sides answeres the question itself.....

How much would I pay to go and see my beloved Manchester United play.....

well a return airfare to the UK...hotel for two nights...the price of a ticket..etc.......that is what it is worth to me once per year.
How much is it worth to play at Sand Hills, about the same all in...but again if the opportunity arises again..I would do it.
I can say the same about Ballyneal because anytrip in that direction would include both courses and the trip down the road to Dismal River.
So the "worth" factor will certainly vary from person to person and Joe Six Pack may view the numbers that I would have to generate to take such a trip as obscene.
I would view similar numbers to attend a NASCAR race in the same manner, as obscene, but I have done it once.

[Jud_T]

Any club with top notch food is a value added IMO as it's pretty rare in my experience.  This can just as easily be a great burger and a cold local microbrew as fine dining.  I guess the point is if you're gonna serve food and drink, why not make it really good? I really can't understand the full service clubs that serve pricey mediocre food.  I guess they feel they have a captive audience, at least for the time being...

[John Kavanaugh]

How much is it worth to play at Sand Hills, about the same all in...but again if the opportunity arises again..I would do it.
I can say the same about Ballyneal because anytrip in that direction would include both courses and the trip down the road to Dismal River.

One thing I think Jim Colton would agree with me on is that just because Sand Hills, Dismal and Ballyneal are in the same region there is absolutely no reason to make the trip feeling like you need to play all three.  I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again.  I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.

Now with Kemper Sports taking over management of The Prairie Club time/travel management have gotten even more confusing.  I am afraid I am just going to have to flip a coin on even what should be the simplest choice of flying into Denver or Omaha.  It is like if you are going to relax and enjoy your excursion you need to pick one girl to take to the dance.  It sure worked for the members of Sand Hills for many years.

[John Kavanaugh]

Any club with top notch food is a value added IMO as it's pretty rare in my experience.  This can just as easily be a great burger and a cold local microbrew as fine dining.  I guess the point is if you're gonna serve food and drink, why not make it really good? I really can't understand the full service clubs that serve pricey mediocre food.  I guess they feel they have a captive audience, at least for the time being...

Not only that, what is so difficult about providing some space to breathe and a bit of room to push back your chair.

[Terry Lavin]

Jerry:

Under the model and at this location, you arrive, then golf, eat and sleep...here.  That's why our course, accommodations, and culinary are top notch - combined probably better than 99% of clubs in the country.   We really do take the experience we provide quite seriously.  There are no other alternatives within an hour drive and those are more in the Red Lobster grade.  I guess you don't have to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, or have a beverage.  But, if you do, here is where you get it.  We don't have people come for the day then go home and there are no alternatives.  Hooker County, Nebraska has less than 1,000 residents.  We aren't a Country Club in the traditional sense.  We are a "destination" golf club, and I would even add "very remote" to the term.  If people leave to have dinner, they are on their way to Sand Hills, Prairie, Ballyneal, or an airport to return home.  I think that's why the guys who love these place love them.  There is a real comraderie and real sense of place at all of these clubs.  Bandon does it in a public model.

Sands Hills has a magnificent golf course but few would argue the experience isn't even better.  Most would say the same for Dismal River and Ballyneal.  I've had some of the best meals ever at Sand Hills and Dismal River - Tom and Don have to bring a bigger pair of pants if they stay a few weeks.   Special is special, even if it may not be special to everyone.

Again, I assume it is the same at Bandon and Ballyneal. 

It isn't promotion, its just very special.

This quintessentially describes the level of service that is required for this sort of destination golf experience.  I've been to Bandon five times and have never left the property.  The execution of the food and beverage service, combined with the comfortable gathering areas ensures that I won't have any pressing need to exit the premises in search of same.  My experience at Sand Hills was the same.  I went with a couple golf writer buddies and we had a spectacular time, especially after the sun went down.  Everybody who played that day (probably six dozen players) went directly to the bar and then the dining room where we washed down the steaks with great cabernet while Old Mother Hubbard regaled us with a bunch of funny stories.  You aren't going to get that at the Red Lobster.  I'm heartened, but not surprised, to learn that the demand for excellence is the same at Dismal River.  I'm bringing my crew out a couple times this summer and will give full reports!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JK,
No problem with what you say at all...any iof the three venues would be justification for a trip in their own right, I can agree with that..
Again it is what ever is value to you...to me if I am going to pay the airfare to Denver, or even North Platte I will play them all.
BUT...If one of my buddies with his own jet comes along...I may choose just one
but I am greedy, spoiled and  a total good course junkie!!!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Terry the quality of food and gathering areas at Dismal will certainly not dissappoint!!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,
No problem with what you say at all...any iof the three venues would be justification for a trip in their own right, I can agree with that..
Again it is what ever is value to you...to me if I am going to pay the airfare to Denver, or even North Platte I will play them all.
BUT...If one of my buddies with his own jet comes along...I may choose just one
but I am greedy, spoiled and  a total good course junkie!!!

You must also be connected.  Airfare to Denver is $120 bucks each way, Omaha $90.  Airfare is a non issue.

What is odd about this entire discussion is that Sand Hills was more enjoyable when it was the only choice.  All these distractions actually dilute the experience.  I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal.  Get there, play, get home sounds so simply exotic.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou and Brett. 
We are mixing peas and carrots here.

Chris- I didn't address the viability (or justification) of the DR model.  To do so with any level of confidence, I would need much more detailed information on the capital structure, operations (P & L), condition of the property, and long term objectives.  While I've "known" JohnK for nearly 10 years, I typically don't have a clue where he is coming from, so, I should have answered the question in the manner that it could be given the two conditions (no debt, housing gains offsetting F & B losses) and single metric (CPR based on 10,000 per annum).  That would have been a relatively easy exercise- assume maintenance and total operating expenses at $1 Million, the CPR = $100; $2 Million + $200; etc.  That's way too simple for such a complicated man who estimates road projects in the multi-millions, so, instead, I thought that maybe he was trying to develop a feel for what posters on this site might be willing to pay on a CPR basis.  That's what I answered, knowing the likelihood that he would find some way to minimize me as being a cheapskate.

I don’t need to tell you that the ultra-high quality service- low volume model you seem to be executing translates to disproportionally high costs.  There are quite a few in Texas that are trying to do similar things (like JK’s Victoria National example, I recently played with the HP of one such club with over 300 members, mid-five figure initiation fee, around $12k in annual dues, and no debt that somehow has to be subsidized to the tune of $2 Million by the developer owner).   It is a testament to the economic strength of this country that there appears to be enough people who can belong to such places.  I can bet that the members of these clubs don’t think in terms of cost per round (or in a community  property state, their wives are kept in the dark).  I am very thankful that such clubs exist and wish the members continued success.  Golf being a big world, we are all better off having a wide range of choices; from Pinion Hills to the Sand Hills; from  Akin GC to Augusta National;  from old Tenison East to Dallas National.

Chris, if you could, please answer my two earlier questions:  how is the pheasant hunting in your area and when do you expect the Doak course to open.   I do look forward to playing DR someday.

[John_Cullum]

Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?

[Jud_T]

 I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal.

Not to mention bringing out the balance of us GCA buttboys...

[John Kavanaugh]

Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?

It literally slipped into the lake.  They are rebuilding a new course at no cost to the members.

[Chris Johnston]

Lou

No worries - I enjoy your comments!  I shared the basics so you can judge for yourself.  Sorry about forgetting your other questions - I was thinking about food!

There is bird hunting in the area and we are happy to put folks who wish to avail in touch with more knowldgeable locals.  Fishing too.  We don't get alot of this but it is around.  Mullen has a pretty cool annual event called the "Sharptail Shootout" in the Fall.  People come from all over the country to partake.

Tom's course will be finished this spring/summer and, with grow in, open probably July/August of 2013.  Members may be able to "sneak on it" this fall if weather is helpful but that will be limited and I won't be looking.  

I believe Sutton Bay had some challenges with the land but it too is a very special place and the club is doing all the right things to address the issues.  Well worth the visit and a great place.

[John Kavanaugh]

 I believe the new Doak course will eliminate many of the distractions associated with at trip to Dismal.

Not to mention bringing out the balance of us GCA buttboys...

Jud,

It's not often that I compliment the members of this board, but I must say how pleased I am at the number of people who have traveled to Dismal before they could play the new Doak.  The success of the 5th major is a testament to the true love of the game.  I will never forget those who showed kindness to her before the birth of the chosen one.

[Mike Hendren]

I have played Sand Hills once, and I am very grateful for that once, but don't have a need to ever play it again.  I would be, and have been, very happy to make the journey with the intention of only playing one of the three.

Thanks for this sentiment Barney.  I was beginning to forget the reason I like you.  It hasn't crossed my mind to solicit access to either Sand Hills or Ballyneal while at this year's 5th Major.  Personally, to desire a second bite of the Fruit of the Tree of Architectural Greatness undermines the tremendous privilege it is to be offered the first bite, which invariably satisfies me.  I can't even bring myself to accept a very gracious return invitation to Cypress Point Club.   

As for value, last year I spent approximatyely $500 and two days to drive and play 18 holes at a course I wanted to see at the invitation of a member whose fellowship I enjoy immensely.  It wasn't a question of "value."  I can't justify anything based on "value."  With me it's more of a "life's too damned short."

See you at Dismal.

Bogey

[John_Cullum]

Whatever became of Sutton Bay?
Does it now occupy the cesspool of the sandhills that Dismal once did?

It literally slipped into the lake.  They are rebuilding a new course at no cost to the members.

Wow. I missed that news.  I looked at their website the other day when this question popped into my brain, and saw no mention of a problem.

 I just looked up a thread from August and it's a mess. I wish them luck.