[Keith Phillips]

A few Florida courses I'd like to read opinions of - haven't played them but seem interesting - Windsor in Vero Beach, Loblolly Pines in Hobe Sound and LaGorce in Miami.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd like to know more about the Everglades Club down that way.  Also, how is Riomar CC in Vero Beach?

The Everglades Club is one of the few truly open anti-semetic clubs...bring a Jew as a guest and they throw the member out.

[Tim Martin]

Wanumetonomy sits just above Narragansett Bay in R. I. and is great fun with a Raynor pedigree. Although not long by today`s standards at just over 6300 yds it uses a fairly small piece of land very effectively bringing you out to the bay and back in again on the outward nine and while not taking you all the way out on the inward nine still giving you some great vistas.  

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

I've felt this way about Dunbar. It has a number of very strong holes including seaside holes that are fun and challenging. Dunbar doesn't get the love of many other courses in the East Lothian area.

Goswick, not much more than 30 minutes south of Dunbar but, crucially, in England, is far more overlooked and, in my view at least, is a better course.

[Mark Mammel]

I like Eastward Ho CC in Chatham, MA on Cape Cod (east), and of course Pacific Grove GL back 9 (west).  Of course, the east coast of Scotland is littered with wonderful links tracks- Scotscraig, Fortrose & Rosmarkie, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Buckpool, and on...

So much golf to play, so little time.

[Tim Martin]

I like Eastward Ho CC in Chatham, MA on Cape Cod (east), and of course Pacific Grove GL back 9 (west).  Of course, the east coast of Scotland is littered with wonderful links tracks- Scotscraig, Fortrose & Rosmarkie, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Buckpool, and on...

So much golf to play, so little time.

Mark-I love Eastward Ho but I do think it gets noticed and is on many peoples must play list.

[Howard Riefs]

deleted

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Oregon Coast is littered with em.

Sandpines, Agate Beach, Salishan, Manzanita, Seaside, Gearhart,

What he said!

[JMEvensky]

deleted

Too late--I read the linked deposition.

I didn't think there were any places left where the Chosen People couldn't even be guests.

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd like to know more about the Everglades Club down that way.  Also, how is Riomar CC in Vero Beach?

The Everglades Club is one of the few truly open anti-semetic clubs...bring a Jew as a guest and they throw the member out.

Ouch; guess that's one Raynor course I'll never see!

But what about Riomar in Vero?

Has anyone played Bald Head Island Club since Tim Cate renovated it?

Fripp Island's two golf courses are close to the ocean, but, I gather, are relatively unremarkable?

And how about the golf course on Dauphin Island, Alabama?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Given the length of the California coast line, it is surprising how little high quality golf is there, outside of the Monterey Peninsula.  

Given the existence of the California Coastal Commission it is not so surprising.


David,

The CCC wasn't established until 1972, so one has to wonder why there's a paucity of quality ocean side or near ocean courses in California.

Could it be that those involved with creating courses pre and perhaps post 1972, felt that the views were the critical factor and not the underlying architecture.

Could it be that the effort/s to create an oustanding course were woefully lacking ?

How else can you explain the lack of quality oceanside or near ocean courses in California ?

Coore & Crenshaw's Dos Pueblos golf couse which was slated to be built on the land just north of Sandpiper had great possibilities until axed by the CCC about 10 years ago.

[Steve Salmen]

When I was in college, I played Bodega Bay a lot.

I played it last week for the first time since.  I liked it then and I still like it today.  Other than the goofy 5th hole, I like the front.  Though it's not links, the course played firm and fast.  

It's understandable how one may not care for 1,3,4,5, or 8.  Perhaps a bit moundy?

[jim_lewis]

Ocean Hammock is a very good Nicklaus resort course located in Palm Coast, Florida. It is not "near" the ocean, it is smack dab on the the Atlantic. The 9th and 18th holes run along the ocean while the 8th, 15th and 17th greens are also on the ocean. the 10th and 16th tees back up to the ocean. It has several other features that are valued on the site including skyline greens and bunkers in the fairway. It has been several years since I played the course. The only negative that I recall was that there were too many "cape-like" water holes that required a tee shot over water to a diagnonal fareway. I remember that Matt Ward used to cite this course as one of Jack's better recent designs. That was one of the few things that I recall agreeing with Matt on.

Jim Lewis

[Patrick_Mucci]

When I was in college, I played Bodega Bay a lot.

I played it last week for the first time since.  I liked it then and I still like it today.  Other than the goofy 5th hole, I like the front.  Though it's not links, the course played firm and fast.  

It's understandable how one may not care for 1,3,4,5, or 8.  Perhaps a bit moundy?

Steve,

Did you play # 16 from the upper tee ?

[Howard Riefs]

The only negative that I recall was that there were too many "cape-like" water holes that required a tee shot over water to a diagnonal fareway. 

I had the same critique of Ocean Hammock. There were 4 or 5 cape holes.

[Tim Martin]

I'd like to know more about the Everglades Club down that way.  Also, how is Riomar CC in Vero Beach?

The Everglades Club is one of the few truly open anti-semetic clubs...bring a Jew as a guest and they throw the member out.

Ouch; guess that's one Raynor course I'll never see!

But what about Riomar in Vero?

Has anyone played Bald Head Island Club since Tim Cate renovated it?

Fripp Island's two golf courses are close to the ocean, but, I gather, are relatively unremarkable?

And how about the golf course on Dauphin Island, Alabama?

Tim- Although I have not played Bald Head Island in about 5 or 6 years I always enjoyed the golf course. Check out this review on Tim Cate`s reno.
http://www.baldheadisland.com/blog/?p=2200
 

[David_Tepper]

Pat Mucci -

One reason for the relative paucity (in number, not quality) of courses along the California could be that a lot of the coastal land is not very stable. Remember that the important course at the Olympic Club originally (in the 1920's-30's) was the Ocean Course, before the seaside land under the course gave way. Subsequent versions of the Ocean Course and even the par-3 Cliffs Course have suffered damage from erosion/landslide.s The 18th hole at Pebble Beach has not been immune from erosion either.

Lincoln Park in San Francisco has also been damaged by coastal land giving way under parts of the course. I believe the Donald's course in Southern California has suffered similar damage. In the almost 40 years i have been living here, I have seen a good number of homes built along the coast slide into the ocean.  

Compared to the east coast of the U.S. or the coastlines of the British Isles, the west coast of the U.S. is very young in geological terms. It does not exactly encourage investment.

DT        

[David Kelly]

Ocean Hammock is a very good Nicklaus resort course located in Palm Coast, Florida. It is not "near" the ocean, it is smack dab on the the Atlantic.

I agree that it is one of Nicklaus' better designs.  I know there must be some reason for it but I didn't like the mangroves (or whatever they were) separating the course from the beach.  Even though you are right on the beach you really don't see the ocean that much.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Thats an excellent point and I hadn't really thought of that.  Given how tall the cliffs are where Torrey Pines is perched I'm surprised there hasn't been a big slide yet...or maybe there has and I just don't know about it.

I guess what keeps the courses intact in the Monterey area is the combo of the lower run out into the ocean and the relatively rocky terrain that holds up much better.  But even #14 at The Dunes Course has had its issues over the years IIRC. 

P.S.  I wonder how vulnerable 9 and 10 at Pebble are?  Will they take a similar strategy with #18 and build a seawall eventually?

P.P.S  It would also seem a few holes at Bandon Resort could potentially have issues like 16 at BD and 13 at PD.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I think those are examples of courses ON the ocean as opposed to courses close to the ocean.

Trump's LA course also fell victim to landslides, as do many of the residential developments.

But, if you consider courses offset from the ocean but close enough to enjoy the ocean breezes, you still have to ask why there's a paucity in quality courses.

I know many bashed Sandpines, but, I felt that there were a number of good holes at Sandpines.
Could it have been better ?  Sure, but, I don't think it's as bad as many, including my friend Tommy Naccarato claim.
Tommy and I have had many discussions on Sandpines and I'd like nothing better than to play a round with him at Sandpines.

Could it be that the architects felt that anything they produced would be enhanced by the quality of the views ?

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I think those are examples of courses ON the ocean as opposed to courses close to the ocean.

Trump's LA course also fell victim to landslides, as do many of the residential developments.

But, if you consider courses offset from the ocean but close enough to enjoy the ocean breezes, you still have to ask why there's a paucity in quality courses.

I know many bashed Sandpines, but, I felt that there were a number of good holes at Sandpines.
Could it have been better ?  Sure, but, I don't think it's as bad as many, including my friend Tommy Naccarato claim.
Tommy and I have had many discussions on Sandpines and I'd like nothing better than to play a round with him at Sandpines.

Could it be that the architects felt that anything they produced would be enhanced by the quality of the views ?

That's potentially introducing quite a large number of courses though Pat.  In the bay area alone, the heavy ocean breeze can be felt all over the entire area.

[Greg Chambers]

A course really close to the ocean that I enjoy is Olivas Links in Ventura.  I have played in an ocean breeze there almost every time.  And you can see the masts in the harbor from a couple of holes.  Fun, challenging course...I just wish it wasn't always so busy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

Are those courses CLOSE to the ocean ?

[Ted Cahill]

I'm suprised how little attention Newport Dunes near Corpus Christi, TX recieves on this board.  It is routed through some actual dunes.  The pasaplum turf allows some ground play.  Wind is certainly a factor.  Back nine has some nice gulf views. As I write this, considering the earlier posts in this thread, I can't help but wonder how come a state like Texas (the opposite of California when it comes to environmental and land regulation!) has so few golf courses on it's coast?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Are those courses CLOSE to the ocean ?

Pat,

Thats what I was trying to get at...its all in the definition of the criteria you want to use.  In the bay area you can get the ocean induced wind 20+ miles away from the ocean.  Would you call that close?

And in So Cal given the flat runout to the ocean in several parts of the area, you can get ocean wind further inland than that.

For the purposes of this thread, you may just want to draw a line in the sand.  5 miles or less to the ocean or something like that.

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