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Ronald Montesano

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When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« on: January 02, 2012, 11:00:58 AM »
To Cape Or Not To Cape


I imagine that some who inhabit the Three Rivers area of Quebec will recognize this hole, which is neither the point nor entirely factual. I wonder if this is truly a Cape hole, as it is called "Cape" by its master. Thoughts?
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Ross Tuddenham

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 12:01:27 PM »
If the bunkers up the right roughly correspond with the lengths for most drives why would a player bother flirting with the stream?  Hitting the middle of the fairway would mean carrying the stream about 100 yards from the tee and well short of your landing zone, almost out of play in fact..  Not really the risk/reward, bite off as much as you can chew drive associated with a typical cape hole.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 12:43:04 PM by Ross Tuddenham »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 12:09:23 PM »
Bunkers up the right?
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Stewart Abramson

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 04:19:02 PM »
This was discussed here for 5 pages (or, at least "When is a Cape a Cape" was discussed)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41932.0/

I'm still not sure of the answer.

Kyle Harris

Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 04:40:15 PM »
I think the cape is actually in the location of the green, that is it is surrounded on three sides by a major hazard, preferably water.

The angled tee shot is used to gain an advantage by being closer to the green in order to loft a pitch over the hazard. Think of Cape Cod, with a tee at Wood's Hole and the green in Provincetown.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 05:37:05 PM »
Here's the quote we needed, on page five, of the thread that Stewart cited:

Niall,  unless I am reading them incorrectly, in all of these descriptions you seem to be focusing on the drive over a corner.   CBM's Cape was defined by the green.     

That's a Dave Moriarty observation and it supports what Kyle says. I had mistakenly assumed that the Cape was defined solely by the fairway. Pregnant as the 5th at Fox Chapel seems to be (wrong Trois Rivieres...my bad), the Cape comes into play by the green. Case closed.
Coming in 2024
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~Maybe some more!!

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 05:54:18 PM »
When it looks nothing like the Cape at NGLA???  Correct me if i am wrong, like that's not going to happen, but I believed Cape holes were built along the lines of the cape at NGLA. Water is the major hazard not bunkers and what looks like a road. Played the Cape at National and the hole pictured is no comparison. IMHO

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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 05:57:17 PM »
I think the cape is actually in the location of the green, that is it is surrounded on three sides by a major hazard, preferably water.

The angled tee shot is used to gain an advantage by being closer to the green in order to loft a pitch over the hazard. Think of Cape Cod, with a tee at Wood's Hole and the green in Provincetown.

you are correct, i believe
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Doug Wright

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 06:10:44 PM »
Ron,

When this topic comes up (as it seems to frequently) I always revert to George Bahto's excellent Feature Interview linked here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-bahto-november-2002-2/ . Here is the excerpt on the NGLA Cape hole:

4. Which of the Macdonald hole designs do you think is most misunderstood?
That’s an easy one – the Cape hole.

It has become a strange evolution over time that the present (mis)conception of a Macdonald type Cape hole has come to refer to risk / reward tee-shot over some type hazard – the reward of a successful challenge being a better approach to the green. Remember, I’m talking about the Cape hole in the context of Charles Blair Macdonald ‘inventing’ the strategy, which he did.

That risk/reward drive concept is not what a Macdonald cape holes is about.. You could not have ‘invented’ a diagonal drive over a hazard in the British Isles for certainly there would have been and still are many of them in the British Isles.

The definition of the word ‘cape’ refers to a body of land jutting into a body of water, forming a small peninsula. Macdonald 14th ‘Cape’ green originally jutted into Bulls Head, but was subsequently moved in the late 1920s for two reasons. One was that, downwind, big hitters were attempting to drive the green – C.B. would not have any of that nonsense. The second reason was the necessity of constructing a new access road along the edge of the shoreline. The original road to the clubhouse ran through the middle of the property and it was becoming a problem because of increased traffic. Macdonald moved the14th green further left inland and further down the fairway, then surrounded the green on three sides with sand representing the original concept. Seth Raynor then designed a new access road leading to the new National front gate.

Macdonald / Raynor Cape holes come in a variety of designs. The 14th at Fishers Island, for example, requires a tee-ball that flirts close to the edge of a hazard rather than successfully attempt a carry to gain advantage. The Fishers Island Cape green juts out into wetlands.

The famous Cape hole at Mid-Ocean juts out into Mangrove Bay but there is a lot of vegetation that disguises the look (see drawing pp-236 Scotland’s Gift).

Even greens that seemingly jut out into midair at the edge of a precipice can be considered ‘Cape-style greens” – in an article he wrote about the Yale course, Charles Banks who was there at the time, describes the second green (not the second hole) at Yale ‘as a Cape style green’ – he helped build the course.

The Cape definition that has evolved of the diagonal risk carry will certainly continue to be used but a true cape hole refers to the orientation of the green complex, again, all this in the context of the Macdonald/Raynor architecture.

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Ronald Montesano

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 06:16:50 PM »
Thanks to you, Doug.
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Stewart Abramson

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 08:47:49 PM »
It has become a strange evolution over time that the present (mis)conception of a Macdonald type Cape hole has come to refer to risk / reward tee-shot over some type hazard – the reward of a successful challenge being a better approach to the green. Remember, I’m talking about the Cape hole in the context of Charles Blair Macdonald ‘inventing’ the strategy, which he did... That risk/reward drive concept is not what a Macdonald cape holes is about....a true cape hole refers to the orientation of the green complex...

In the appendix to "Dream Golf" Tom Doak describes the Cape hole at Old Mac (No.9) as "a sharp dogleg to the right with bunkers and gorse on the inside corner keeping you honest on the tee shot, but if you play away from the corner you may be left with a fairly long approach to a narrow green... This hole is based on Macdonalds 14th at NGLA, though we substituted gorse and bunkers in place of a pond that guards the dogleg..."

This seems to focus on the effect of the hazard on the tee shot and the effect of that initial choice on the approach shot. i.e. the risk/reward decision to be made on the tee on account of the relative positions of the dogleg , hazard and green. Merely having a forced carry off the tee isn't enough to make a hole a Cape, but the risk/reward decisions on the tee does seem to be an integral notion to the Cape concept, whther that decison is
merely a challenge to flirt with the edge of the hazard or a challenge to "bite off as much as you can chew" across the hazard.  Although the diagonal "bite off as much" aspect seems to many to have beome the sine qua non of a Cape, isn't it  just one of several possible designs that may constitute a Cape?

« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 08:50:34 PM by Stewart Abramson »

Matt Kardash

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 10:23:10 PM »
Which course is this? I live in Montreal and have never bothered to go to Trois Rivieres to play golf. In my mind Trois Rivieres is simply the city I must pass through to get to Quebec  :P
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 03:14:02 AM »
At Reddish Vale we've got a great 'Cape' hole - the 16th.




Although 320 yards on the card the direct line to the green measures 275 yards with a 240 yard carry over the river and rough (OOB). Just the right distance to tempt you have a go...


...very few succeed!

I prefer to fade a 3-wood to about 75 yards short of the green. Even then the pitch in is a butt clencher!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:32:04 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 05:03:01 AM »
If we are to take the idea of PRINCIPLE STRATEGIES of template holes as the guiding definition (rather than strict adherence to replicating the originals), than I cannot see why a "Cape" can't be a tee shot or an approach shot or indeed both.  I find it very strange that folks who get behind CB Mac 100% with his variations on the Redan theme (mainly eliminating blindness, but also sometimes with the green well below the tee) now think it unreasonable that the Cape idea cannot refer to a tee shot.  Now I can see arguing about the use of water or not because the penalty for failure to execute is very different than if one finds a bunker or if one is threatened with a lost ball.  These variances can certainly change one's opinion about the amount of risk which is acceptable.  But for CB Maccers to argue over tee shot or approach as a Cape would seem to go against how CB Mac envisioned the idea of templates.     

Ciao 
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 05:18:40 AM »
Thanks, guys. It is nice to receive varied information from sources that can back it up. I think my original intent to pigeonhole the Cape hole has allowed my understanding to expand to both tee and approach shots.
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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 10:57:31 AM »
I think the cape is actually in the location of the green, that is it is surrounded on three sides by a major hazard, preferably water.

The angled tee shot is used to gain an advantage by being closer to the green in order to loft a pitch over the hazard. Think of Cape Cod, with a tee at Wood's Hole and the green in Provincetown.

Harris, that's a good example from you. 

Closer to home, we have Cape May.  You can tee off in Salem City, and hit a drive towards Millville, or Port Norris, with the "green" being the city of Cape May.   
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kalen Braley

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 05:00:01 PM »
Idaho Club #1 comes to mind. 

Not only is there water down all the left, but the green does stick out into the pond, where missing short left, left, and long all result in a watery grave for your ball...even thought you can't tell from this pic which is looking back down the fairway.  Its a ball buster of an opening hole.



George_Bahto

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 05:27:02 PM »
Interesting:

let me add this:

if a cape hole is (now) a diagonal drive over some sort of hazard on a tee shot .... why would the word “cape”  be used about a drive?? 

Cape definition refers to a body of land jutting out into water .... where does the drive come in to the story ......

13 NGLA was altered but the “Cape” CBM invented was the original was the old green out into the bay

 

As I said before, it has been an evolution based on NGLA 13,  the present version, the drive over the arm of water to the fairway
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Sean_A

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 06:12:07 PM »
George

I am not sure I follow your logic.  If Cape hole is defined by water, why couldn't a drive be considered a cape shot?  So far as I can tell the same principle applies - hitting a target over a diagonal water hazard.  Granted, off the tee the target is necessarily more elastic, but it must have been the case that players approached a cape green without intending to actually hit the green.  It doesn't seem like a stretch at all to me include either end of a hole as a cape shot.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 06:17:47 PM »
George

I am not sure I follow your logic.  If Cape hole is defined by water, why couldn't a drive be considered a cape shot?  So far as I can tell the same principle applies - hitting a target over a diagonal water hazard.  Granted, off the tee the target is necessarily more elastic, but it must have been the case that players approached a cape green without intending to actually hit the green.  It doesn't seem like a stretch at all to me include either end of a hole as a cape shot.   

Ciao

I'm not George, but isn't the idea that the green is positioned such that a high lofted shot is the best bet for holding the green? Therefore, the diagonal carry is urgent strictly to position the ball for such a play.

Sean_A

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 06:24:17 PM »
Kyle

For a competent player, it is very rarely the case that high lofted shot isn't the best way to hold a green.  That said, I had no idea that one of the principles of a Cape hole was to demand a high lofted approach.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 06:27:23 PM »
Kyle

For a competent player, it is very rarely the case that high lofted shot isn't the best way to hold a green.  That said, I had no idea that one of the principles of a Cape hole was to demand a high lofted approach.

Ciao

With a generally small-ish green being surrounded by water on three sides.... I think that's fairly self-evident, no?

Sean_A

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 06:32:40 PM »
Kyle

For a competent player, it is very rarely the case that high lofted shot isn't the best way to hold a green.  That said, I had no idea that one of the principles of a Cape hole was to demand a high lofted approach.

Ciao

With a generally small-ish green being surrounded by water on three sides.... I think that's fairly self-evident, no?

Unless you drive to the correct position in the fairway...no?  I write no, not to be a smartass, I write no as a true question.  Just as my last sentence in the previous post was one of surprise.  I was assuming there was an ideal position in the fairway which allowed for a choice of approach style. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

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Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 06:38:38 PM »
I am genuinely curious.

A local course here in Spokane has a par 3 that is surrounded by water on 3 sides, left, long, and right.  Does this mean its a cape hole?

Or does it have to be a par 4 or more?  And does the angle of attack in relation to where the water is matter?

Kyle Harris

Re: When Is A Cape Not A Cape?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2012, 06:38:42 PM »
Kyle

For a competent player, it is very rarely the case that high lofted shot isn't the best way to hold a green.  That said, I had no idea that one of the principles of a Cape hole was to demand a high lofted approach.

Ciao

With a generally small-ish green being surrounded by water on three sides.... I think that's fairly self-evident, no?

Unless you drive to the correct position in the fairway...no?  I write no, not to be a smartass, I write no as a true question.  Just as my last sentence in the previous post was one of surprise.  I was assuming there was an ideal position in the fairway which allowed for a choice of approach style. 

Ciao

Gotcha, well with the cape tee shot anything that positions the ball closest to the green is good, which is where I think the reliance on the diagonal carry comes in.