The 8th green at Pasatiempo is possessed!!!

[Joel_Stewart]

Either by Dr. MacKenzie or the devil, possibly both!  It needs a priest to perform an exorcism.

I think it's the single hardest putting surface I have ever played.  

Today, under 70 degree weather, I was determined to break my streak of 3 putting this hole.

The pin was back middle.  It played about 170.  I hit a strong tee shot that ended up about 20 feet pin high to the left of the hole.  I knew it was fast and slightly down hill with about a 4 foot break.  I stroked what I thought was a good putt and some demoniac power then grabbed the ball, slowing it down to half it's speed and propelling it dead right.  It started a slow trickle, and then picking up speed.  It finished some 70 to 80 feet away....  My next putt was 30 feet short.

Pasa has many greens like this.  It is the poster child for greens built in 1929 that do not fit todays agronomy and equipment.

It doesn't look that hard from the tee.  It doesn't appear to have the slope as the the 16th or 18th but is the single hardest green to putt at all of Pasatiempo.  

Do not stare at the photo, it may possess you.

[Ben Sims]

Joel,

The 8th at Pasa is the first green I ever 4-putted.  The second is #2 at Oakmont.  There is something visually confusing about the bunker and road behind the green that keep it from appearing to be so treacherous. 

I bet the green is damn near 3 degrees where it is pinned in this photo.  Sheesh.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sounds like 18th at Olympic Club to me during that fateful US Open...

Is that good design/hole placement/superintendency?

[Guy Nicholson]

Best four-putt of my life.

[Bill_McBride]

At the 2004? Kings Putter, Neal Meagher used an inclinometer to establish that the slope of the front half of the 8th green is 6%!

There's a ridge across the green.  Once a missed putt gets to that line, Katie bar the door.   As Joel just saw.  Last time there I three putted from 4'.   No fun. 

[Sean_A]

I don't understand the point of that sort of green speed (whatever it was) with that much slope.  It sounds like a terrible maintenance meld.

Ciao 

[Matthew Mollica]

On my visit a decade ago, I was told the trees through 6,7 and 8 were planted to improve player safety, as a golfer had died on the 8th green, having been struck by an errant drive from the 7th. Maybe that green is possessed after all.....

[Joel_Stewart]

I don't understand the point of that sort of green speed (whatever it was) with that much slope.  It sounds like a terrible maintenance meld.

Ciao 

I've played it enough now that I have to agree.  They modified the 11th and I think they seriously need to consider this hole as well.  I've 4 putted it more than once and it's obvious others have as well.

A friend of mine who is a member at Pasatiempo was telling me he was talking with Johnny Miller about the course.  Miller said that he would take his sons down to Pasa to play in junior tournaments and after he would get them off on their rounds, he would run to his car, get his lawn chair and then go sit behind the 8th green to watch the mayhem. 

I'm hoping that Jim Urbina or Tom Doak would comment to see if the club has considered any changes.

[ed_getka]

Historically #8 has been extremely difficult if not impossible if you are above the hole. However, that holds true to some extent to most Mackenzie courses I have played. If you are above the hole you have played a poor shot, especially at #8 Pasa. Making par from below the hole is not guaranteed, but it is certainly way easier. I haven't played at Pasa in about 4 years so I don't know what the firmness of the greens are and the green speeds are currently. I would agree that you have to play #8 defensively and perhaps that is unfair, but where I was in complete agreement with toning down #11 and love the outcome, I would not want #8 messed with. It would be too easy to overdo the changes and end up with a boring green. Think #18 Olympic Club as an example of how hard it is to make changes without overdoing it IMO.

[JC Urbina]

Joel,

Happy New Year.

# 11 green was softened years ago due a less then attractive  3 foot wall that was in front of the green when someone attempted to raise the front to flatten out the very steep slopes.  The grades on the 11th green were anywhere from 8-10% from back to front except the last 1/4 of the front of the green where they achieved a slope of 2-3 % .  The green looks more natural now  and the overall slopes range from 3-6 % depending where you survey the green.  A few 2% percents exist but are masked nicely and the green fits into the steep grade a little more natural then before.  This green was softened only because someone had modified the green years before and making it appear more natural a little easier to grasp.

# 8 Green is a different story.  Years ago when I marked out the green for expansion I surveyed every square inch of the green and found by expanding it over to the right and left we could find extra cup locations that were in the 3% range but over all this is the steepest green to pin.  By slowing down the green speeds the green is manageable but even when they start out in the morning at a certain speed by the end of the day depending on conditions I am sure they get faster. When it comes to the 8th green other then the constant top dressing this green gets it has never been modified and the decision to soften it is taken seriously.  How to make it fit into the slope as natural as it sits today is  a major undertaking.  But the club is not ready to start that process. 

I have modified the front of 3 and 9 green because someone years ago had lifted the fronts of these greens and I wanted the look of the green to be more natural.  The club was comfortable with the modifications only because  the greens had been altered years ago and now they appear to be more in line with a natural green setting.  I hope most people wouldn't notice the changes.  It's a tough call to make since you don't want to change the character of the hole and making the green to flat would be out of character with Pasatiempo in general.

[Patrick Kiser]

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[Patrick Kiser]

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[Patrick Kiser]

I think another hole that can get kind of nuts is the 16th.  That one can get out of hand with faster green speeds.  I hit a pretty good shot yesterday to a middle/top left pin (pin position #1).  I was within a foot of the ridge about 6-8 feet short of the pin and ... down I went off the green to the front lip.

In retrospect ... it simply was a poor shot and not good enough.  One needs to think about going ... get this ... above the hole on this pin position.  End of story in my mind.

So while I think it's tempting to criticize, I also think one has to be their toughest critic.  All I know is I learned something about that green yesterday and know what to do next time.

Regarding the 8th ... I feel it's a matter of learning about the green over time, but like the 16th (or even the 5th in some spots) the speeds just can't get too crazy.  I was there and saw Joel's putt.  It wasn't perhaps his best (although it seemed like a reasonably good enough putt), but we were all blown away to see where it went.  The green was just a tad fast.

Which brings up another thing: the best speed.

I wonder what that might be and keeping in mind to have consistent speed on each hole.  Can that be done here while keeping a balance without losing the challenge?  I'm not in the best position to answer, but it's something I've thought about.  I think it has to be tough to keep things at the right speed here.

[astavrides]

I'm not sure there is any reason that the green speeds have to be the same on every green.  They can warn people (about the variation in green speeds) with signs or the people in the pro shop or the starter can tell people when they check in.  If they don't want to redo the steeper greens to avoid runaway 4 putt speeds, then they either have to slow down the steeper ones or slow them all down.  Otherwise, I (and I'm guessing a fair number of others) will play there a lot less often. 

[Bill_McBride]

I'm not sure there is any reason that the green speeds have to be the same on every green.  They can warn people (about the variation in green speeds) with signs or the people in the pro shop or the starter can tell people when they check in.  If they don't want to redo the steeper greens to avoid runaway 4 putt speeds, then they either have to slow down the steeper ones or slow them all down.  Otherwise, I (and I'm guessing a fair number of others) will play there a lot less often. 

The USGA tried that with the 18th at Southern Hills a few years ago.   NOBODY was happy about it - players, fans, media, etc.   Didnt work. 

[astavrides]

I'm not sure there is any reason that the green speeds have to be the same on every green.  They can warn people (about the variation in green speeds) with signs or the people in the pro shop or the starter can tell people when they check in.  If they don't want to redo the steeper greens to avoid runaway 4 putt speeds, then they either have to slow down the steeper ones or slow them all down.  Otherwise, I (and I'm guessing a fair number of others) will play there a lot less often. 

The USGA tried that with the 18th at Southern Hills a few years ago.   NOBODY was happy about it - players, fans, media, etc.   Didnt work. 

The fans will have no say at Pasa--only the players.  ;-).  I remember Schuykill (sp?) CC had one of its greens slower than the others because of its severity.  I don't know what the members thought, but I thought it was a good thing when I played it. 

[Tyler Kearns]

 

Today, under 70 degree weather, I was determined to break my streak of 3 putting this hole.

The pin was back middle.  It played about 170.  I hit a strong tee shot that ended up about 20 feet pin high to the left of the hole.  I knew it was fast and slightly down hill with about a 4 foot break.  I stroked what I thought was a good putt and some demoniac power then grabbed the ball, slowing it down to half it's speed and propelling it dead right.  It started a slow trickle, and then picking up speed.  It finished some 70 to 80 feet away....  My next putt was 30 feet short.

Joel,

Sounds like you broke your 3-putt stroke  .

TK

[Joel_Stewart]

It easily could have been a 5 putt. 

I think it's clear that the green is too severe for todays game.  There are a lot of people who just on this thread admit to 4 putting this green.  My guess is the hole has multiple 4 putts every day!    I'm not sure if I agree with Patrick about my putting stroke.  I hit it the way I wanted to.  If I hit it much harder, it probably would have gone off the green.  If I started it higher, I would have to hit it harder and it probably would have gone off the green.   What is clear is I should not have hit my tee shot pin high to the left of the hole.  Like so many great holes, you have to leave it below the hole.

I appreciate Jim coming on and detailing the complexity of it.  I was a member of Olympic after the 98 Open and remember the 18th hole.  I thought they were just going to flatten out a spot on the top part of the green for a pin spot.  When I went out there they regraded the entire green so I understand what Jim is talking about with regards to the 8th hole at Pasatiempo.  You just can't put a band aid on it.

[Mike Benham]

This board has discussed many times that the "modern" green speeds are too fast for undulating greens such as Pasatiempo.

Perhaps what you experienced yesterday is a result of factors that are not common in the Bay Area for a December and January. 

Very little rainfall, clear weather and cold, near freezing nights have probably taxed the superintendents ability to put water on the course.

[Lou_Duran]

Very little rainfall, clear weather and cold, near freezing nights have probably taxed the superintendents ability to put water on the course.

Are there watering restrictions in Santa Cruz?  I was under the impression that water is at times poured on golf courses to alleviate the effects of expected hard freezes.

Pasa is the poster child for home course advantage.  I played the front nine with the head pro years ago and he had four or five birdies, including one on #8.  And it is more than just seeing the slope- he would tell us the break, but the information was only partially helpful.  #18 is no picnic either.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'm not sure there is any reason that the green speeds have to be the same on every green.  They can warn people (about the variation in green speeds) with signs or the people in the pro shop or the starter can tell people when they check in.  If they don't want to redo the steeper greens to avoid runaway 4 putt speeds, then they either have to slow down the steeper ones or slow them all down.  Otherwise, I (and I'm guessing a fair number of others) will play there a lot less often. 

When I started playing golf it was normal for greens to have different speeds. Maintenance was very basic because of the machinery and agronomic science hadn't developed to the proficiency we have today. Remembering how to putt on each separate green was one of the keys of local knowledge and gave a noticeable home course advantage. Those days went away with the (1) invention of the stimpmeter, quantifying and the ability to equalize green speed and the (2) ability to cut to a lower level, thus lesseninged the effect of grain.

[astavrides]

I'm all for having to leave the ball below the hole sometimes.  But only if it is for the purpose of avoiding having to putt defensively or face 3 putting.  You should not have to leave the ball below the hole in order to avoid your next putt rolling 40 yds once it gets past the hole. 

[Patrick Kiser]

I'm not sure if I agree with Patrick about my putting stroke.  I hit it the way I wanted to.  If I hit it much harder, it probably would have gone off the green.  If I started it higher, I would have to hit it harder and it probably would have gone off the green.   

That could very well be true.  I for one was amazed how much my chip shot from the left fringe turned so much, so I could see your putt doing something similar if you had given it more break.  I think I was fortunate in that my ball stayed up top that shelf.  A foot or less more right and I would have easily joined you down below.

When I played in May with Kyle Henderson and Mark Pearce, the pin was middle/lower left of the green and I basically experienced the same thing as you.  I landed it about 5 feet from the pin and down it came.  Then I putted 2-3 times up to keep it close.  Brutal...

So short of any softening, the speed on this 8th is the key and I just have a feeling after multiple plays that indeed it is a tricky situation to manage.

[ed_getka]

I'm all for having to leave the ball below the hole sometimes.  But only if it is for the purpose of avoiding having to putt defensively or face 3 putting.  You should not have to leave the ball below the hole in order to avoid your next putt rolling 40 yds once it gets past the hole. 

Alex,
   Clearly you don't intend to golf at Crystal Downs. Particularly #11 as many here can attest to I'm sure. I'm not sure what the difference is between #8 Pasa that clearly demands you stay below the hole and most of the holes at Augusta for the Masters where one has to hit to very precise areas. Just hitting the green does not get the job done.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm all for having to leave the ball below the hole sometimes.  But only if it is for the purpose of avoiding having to putt defensively or face 3 putting.  You should not have to leave the ball below the hole in order to avoid your next putt rolling 40 yds once it gets past the hole. 

Alex,
   Clearly you don't intend to golf at Crystal Downs. Particularly #11 as many here can attest to I'm sure. I'm not sure what the difference is between #8 Pasa that clearly demands you stay below the hole and most of the holes at Augusta for the Masters where one has to hit to very precise areas. Just hitting the green does not get the job done.

The 11th at Crystal Downs may have been my last 4 putt and that was years ago.  At least on the 11th you can see the slope.  The 8th at Pasa is sneeky.