Seminole

[Brian Potash]

I have been fortunate enough to play Seminole a handful of times.  I have never played another course that exposes and punishes mistakes in the short game to the same degree.  You can be 100 yds out in 1 and if your sand game is not up to snuff can easily walk away with any score from double to giving up.  The combination of the heavily bunkered tabletop greens and the slick green speeds will cause most average (for a 14 index) sand shots to skid across the green into the next trap.  More than any course I find myself hitting chips and bunker shots away from the pin to give me a greater margin of error in keeping my ball on the green.  This leads to many long and difficult 2 puts.  I think as the round wears on this becomes mentally draining and causes you to make other mistakes which in many cases have nothing to do with your short/sand game.  In my most recent round I found myself thinking that even though the architect had no idea where I was going to hit my errant shot, oftentimes I was forced to aim away from the pin.  I realize I am not breaking any new ground here but to me this is great architecture.  It took me a few rounds to realize why this course is so good.  To me Seminole presents a very unique challenge and experience.

Brian

[Mac Plumart]

Brian...I struggle to fully embrace Seminole as "great" architecture.  It is a wonderfully routed golf course.  It is a relentless test of golf...relentless!!!  As you say, the course is mentally draining.  Perhaps it is great, but not ideal.  If great checks one specific box, in this case a test of golf.  While ideal checks multiple boxes with the phrase "playable by all, but still a challenge for the scratch man."

Just a thought.

[Ronald Montesano]

"You can be 100 yds out in 1 and if your sand game is not up to snuff can easily walk away with any score from double to giving up."


Can you explain this quote? Are you saying that you are 100 yards out in the sand?

[Brian Potash]

Mac - Without a doubt Seminole would not be playable by all.  It is just too difficult around the greens.  If you chip and hit sand shots like a 20+ handicapper you would likely have a few holes each round where you could not finish the hole in single digits.  Once you get in some of the greenside bunkers there is no way out or around other than hitting a proficient bunker shot.  Other hard courses I have played like Oakmont, Merion, Bethpage Black you could hit a poor bunker shot but would not always be in another bunker facing a very similar difficult shot.  At Seminole on most holes if you miss the green you are forced to hit a good bunker shot.  Perhaps this does keep it from being an ideal course.

Ronald - I meant you are 100 yds out and do not find the green with your approach.

[Ronald Montesano]

Thank you, Brian.

How challenging are shots from 100 yards at Seminole? Are the greens wide enough to allow for the occasional push or pull? Most people who play Seminole (I imagine) have decent to very good distance control from 100 yards, meaning that their misses will be slightly horizontal, rather than vertical. Also, do you have the opportunity to be 100 yards out in 1 blow very often?

[Brian Potash]

I would say shots from 100-140 yds out are straightforward on some, challenging on most, and extremely challenging on a handful.  Three of the 4 par 3's are very difficult to hit in one shot and those are guarded by bunkers on what seems like all sides (holes 5,13, 17).  The course does not play that long and you can swing all out on many of the par 4's and 5's without getting punished too much for mishits.  It is not a difficult driving course.  As such you can get to 100-140 yards out in 1 shot on a good portion of the holes.   

[Joel_Stewart]

What I like about Seminole is that you can throw out the yardage book most of the time.  It is an amazing course from 100 or 150 yards, where you can hit anything in, from a wedge to a 5 iron. It tempts you with unlimited options.

Brian:  what's ironic about your statement is that Ross probably didn't design the greens to play as you mention.  I think it's pretty well documented that those greens are not what Ross designed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

The genius of the architecture is the consistent balance of the overall challenge irrespective of the direction of the wind.

While individual holes may play dramatically different, the overall challenge remains almost static.

On a site buffeted by wind, and wind from all points of the compass, that's some accomplishment

Seminole has members whose handicaps range from 30+ to Pluses.

It remains a challenge to all levels of golfers.

Brian is correct in that a golfer can be 100 yards from a green and still have a considerable challenge in front of them.
Even the seemingly benigh 1st and 10th holes can lull you into high scores if you don't think and execute.

While I feel it's one of the most user friendly golf courses due to the wide fairways and benign rough, one must be constantly vigiliant, or disaster can strike and strike often.

It has to be one of the most unique golf courses I've played, one that you could play every day and never tire of.

Isn't that the ultimate test of greatness ?

[Mark Pearce]

Am I the only one to whom it seems that Pat and Brian are describing entirely different golf courses?  Posts like Brians (and there are many describing how Seminole is only playable by scratch (or nearly) golfers are the main reason I have little desire to play it.  Then Pat (who, I guess, knows better than most) tells us that it offers a challenge to all levels and has many high handicap members.

Is it playable for mid to high handicappers or not?

[Mark Chaplin]

Every club has members of all handicap ranges, the high handicappers shoot big scores because they aren't very good and the course is tough for their ability. So that's hardly a measure of architecture.

Tough green complexes are proportionately more difficult as handicaps rise.

What speed do they keep the Seminole greens at? They cannot be too quick or the wind would have the ball setting off all on its own all the time.

[Bill_McBride]

Every club has members of all handicap ranges, the high handicappers shoot big scores because they aren't very good and the course is tough for their ability. So that's hardly a measure of architecture.

Tough green complexes are proportionately more difficult as handicaps rise.

What speed do they keep the Seminole greens at? They cannot be too quick or the wind would have the ball setting off all on its own all the time.

Our pro came back from playing in their annual member-pro event and told me the greens were firm and ran 13-14 and the wind was whipping a steady 15-20.  Many bunker shots were as Brian described, with most collecting into the bunkers due to spin.  He is a very capable bunker player and confirmed the difficulty of play in those conditions.   I doubt that's an every day set up.  Only Oakmont does that every day!

[Steve Scott]

Every club has members of all handicap ranges, the high handicappers shoot big scores because they aren't very good and the course is tough for their ability. So that's hardly a measure of architecture.

Tough green complexes are proportionately more difficult as handicaps rise.

What speed do they keep the Seminole greens at? They cannot be too quick or the wind would have the ball setting off all on its own all the time.

Our pro came back from playing in their annual member-pro event and told me the greens were firm and ran 13-14 and the wind was whipping a steady 15-20.  Many bunker shots were as Brian described, with most collecting into the bunkers due to spin.  He is a very capable bunker player and confirmed the difficulty of play in those conditions.   I doubt that's an every day set up.  Only Oakmont does that every day!

I can attest that Seminole does keep their conditions as firm and as fast as they can on a daily basis, especially in February thru May when they close.  The best conditions come in April and early May when south Florida usually is in a drought. 

About ten years ago I caddied there for two seasons and have gone around the course easily 150 times both caddying and playing (they allow caddies to play on slow afternoons).  I have seen the course play very easy after a rain and no wind to howling firm conditions where I have seen many players putt into a few bunkers! 

Overall like Pat said it is a place that one never tires of playing and even the seemingly easy shots play difficult.  Many times you are forced to play 30 feet away from the hole location with a sand wedge.  You have to know the course very well to know when to attack or play conservatively.  Saying this it is playable by many handicap levels but your short game needs to be better than average to score.

[Ronald Montesano]

This course is notable as the place Hogan would prepare for the Masters every year. Looking at the overhead, the things that stand out are the abundance of sand in nearly every critical juncture of the course. While there are no technically-centerline bunkers in the middle of fairways, the abrupt yet curved turn of many fairways creates the same hazard. Some of the fairways appear to pinch slightly in drive zones, although not so much that one might cry "shenanigans."

One of the traits that these greens share with those at CCBuffalo is the need to shoot away from hole locations when the speeds are up. Access from the center of the green is always available and is usually the smart play.

Is there a set of tees back beyond the 6400 or so that the members play from?

I'm curious as to why this course, and not the #2 at Pinehurst, is not spoken of as "the one" by Ross? Is it merely a question of access, in that not nearly as many have seen/played it?

Steve, do they let 46-year old high school teachers caddy?

Joel, in 75 words or less, what is it about the greens that is well-documented as not-Ross?

[Mark Chaplin]

Would greens running 13 or 14 not have the ball running around in a 20mph wind especially on exposed greens?

Links greens are never above 11 because of wind issues. The R&A aim for 10.5 on day one of the Open.

Thinking of Oakmont how much stress is the course under being set up at the limit all the time?

[JC Jones]

Brian:  what's ironic about your statement is that Ross probably didn't design the greens to play as you mention.  I think it's pretty well documented that those greens are not what Ross designed.

Where is this documentation?

[JC Jones]

Brian...I struggle to fully embrace Seminole as "great" architecture.  It is a wonderfully routed golf course.  It is a relentless test of golf...relentless!!!  As you say, the course is mentally draining.  Perhaps it is great, but not ideal.  If great checks one specific box, in this case a test of golf.  While ideal checks multiple boxes with the phrase "playable by all, but still a challenge for the scratch man."

Just a thought.

Interestingly, Seminole is one of the few courses I've played in the last few years where I walked off the 18th green and immediately wanted to go to the 1st tee.  The course is very playable off of the tee box, which makes the challenge to and around the greens ever more appropriate.  Seminole challenges the golfer who goes for too much at the wrong time.

[Brian Potash]

Am I the only one to whom it seems that Pat and Brian are describing entirely different golf courses?  Posts like Brians (and there are many describing how Seminole is only playable by scratch (or nearly) golfers are the main reason I have little desire to play it.  Then Pat (who, I guess, knows better than most) tells us that it offers a challenge to all levels and has many high handicap members.

Is it playable for mid to high handicappers or not?

Mark, I consider myself a mid handicap - 14/15 index.  Seminole is definitely playable by me.  In my most recent round I was dreaming of breaking 80 after the first few holes, hoping to break 90 after I birdied 14, and then holding on to break 100 after a finish of double, quad, bogey, double.  By the 18th hole I was covered in sand and completely mentally drained.  My two thoughts upon leaving were the need to get much better out of the sand and looking forward to playing the course again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

You're wrong !

You need to focus on NOT getting into the sand, not getting out of it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Mark,

Seminole is playable by the mid and high handicap golfer.

One has to remember that the challenge differs for the low, mid and high handicap golfer.

A bogey golfer is not prone, nor sighted on hitting greens in regulation as a scratch or low handicap golfer is.

While the greens at Seminole are fairly large, many play much smaller for the low handicap.

Approaching with a 4 iron second shot is different than approaching with a sand wedge third shot.

The golf course is thoroughly enjoyable by every level of golfer, although, like any course buffeted by good wind, solid ball striking would seem to be a prerequisite.

A proficient short game helps golfers at every course, but, there may be more of a premium on a good short game at Seminole.

If you don't have one, you'll either acquire one or see your handicap rise.

[Anthony Gray]

  The routing is excellent. The course is built on a site where no land is wasted. I prefer a little more isolation to the holes. Very true that I found not many up and downs.

  Anthony

[jonathan_becker]

I think the hardest part of Seminole is trying to properly play short irons into the greens.  With the routing taking the player in all directions, paying attention the the wind is key.  Hitting good short irons in the wind is difficult for all level of players because if shots aren't properly struck and on a good trajectory, they'll be eaten up.  And at Seminole, more than likely, that means the ball is headed into a bunker.

[JC Jones]

I think the hardest part of Seminole is trying to properly play short irons into the greens.  With the routing taking the player in all directions, paying attention the the wind is key.  Hitting good short irons in the wind is difficult for all level of players because if shots aren't properly struck and on a good trajectory, they'll be eaten up.  And at Seminole, more than likely, that means the ball is headed into a bunker.

JB,

Why do you think it is that Seminole is so polarizing?  Some people think it is relentless, others a fair test of golf.  Some see it as a genius design, particularly the routing, and others see it as ho hum?

I ask you this because you and I are a lot higher on Seminole than most of our mutual GCA dorks.

[George Pazin]

Am I the only one to whom it seems that Pat and Brian are describing entirely different golf courses?  Posts like Brians (and there are many describing how Seminole is only playable by scratch (or nearly) golfers are the main reason I have little desire to play it.  Then Pat (who, I guess, knows better than most) tells us that it offers a challenge to all levels and has many high handicap members.

Is it playable for mid to high handicappers or not?

In my experience on golfclubatlas, this comes up quite frequently on many big name courses besides Seminole - Oakmont, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Oakland Hills, etc. These courses tend to produce many who say they are the pinnacle when it comes to testing the pros, but far too difficult for mid to high handicappers.

I think the reason for this dichotomy comes down to how a person views the playability of a course. I think better golfers tend to assume it would drive a high handicapper to be around a green in regulation and walk away with a triple. Conversely, I think many HHers are thrilled being around a green in regulation period! I know I personally will enjoy a course that stresses the short game as Brian and Pat describe Seminole far more than a course that really stresses (and punishes) the long game.

Perhaps I'm unusual in this respect. A good contrast for me would be Inniscrone versus Lehigh. At Inniscrone, I felt challenged by keeping the ball in play, yet scored in the low 90s (can't remember exactly, it was 10 years ago). The next day, I played Lehigh, played very similarly, and shot in the low 100s, because I found more challenge around the greens (don't remember losing a single ball, but I may be overlooking one). Lehigh didn't present as many obvious challenges, it was just better at disguising things like which side of the green was the preferred miss. I greatly preferred Lehigh and it's approach to golf, though that is admittedly more conforming to my own ideas on golf - but I think many would look at my play on each and assume I enjoyed Inniscrone more, since I scored approx 10 shots better.

Sorry for the potential threadjack, I just found Mark's comment/question interesting.

[jonathan_becker]

JC,

I love this place because, for myself, it's the ultimate keep-you-on-your-toes golf course.  You and I are both longer hitters off the tee and as you know you can bomb it around Seminole if you so choose.  With a lot of the shorter iron approaches, my mind goes into scoring mode, but all of the factors surrounding the shot make a 90 yard sw anything but normal and scoreable.

I remember hitting a sw into #1 that landed almost in the hole on a center of the green flag.  I looked down, stepped on my divot, went to hand my club to the forecaddie....and my ball had blown all the way across the green and just barely stayed on the left edge.  Whoa!

You can make tons of birdies at Seminole and still not shoot a good score.  Call me sick or whatever, but I loved that aspect of the course.  Some may call that polarizing.

[Peter Pallotta]

It sounds like Seminole is quite a subtle golf course.  To me the word means that Seminole hides its architecture (and architectural merits) better than most of the great courses we often discuss around here. It doesn't lend itself to easy classification, nor to facile analysis.  The individual holes don't loudly promote the options/choices they present, nor proudly point to themselves as strategic -- there are few of the signifiers (or bells and whistles) that many highly-praised courses utilize, even those courses designed by original/modern day minimalists.  In all this, the course seems to have more in common with the wonderful tier-two English courses than with the greats of America's golden age (e.g. Pine Valley, NGLA, Augusta). Talk about a course one could play every day!!

Peter