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Tim Bert

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2011, 12:52:52 PM »
Par 3s - Pacific Dunes 11, Old Macdonald 2, Pacific Dunes 5,

Short par 4s - Pacific Dunes 6, Ballyneal 7, Pacific Dunes 2

Long Par 4s - Ballyneal 2, Pacific Dunes 13, Old Macdonald 16

Par 5s - Pacific Dunes 15, Old Macdonald 6, Ballyneal 8

The above lists are in no particular order. I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2011, 03:22:21 PM »
Par 3s - Pacific Dunes 11, Old Macdonald 2, Pacific Dunes 5,

Short par 4s - Pacific Dunes 6, Ballyneal 7, Pacific Dunes 2

Long Par 4s - Ballyneal 2, Pacific Dunes 13, Old Macdonald 16

Par 5s - Pacific Dunes 15, Old Macdonald 6, Ballyneal 8

The above lists are in no particular order. I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.

Tim, I always find 4 and 13 to be fascinating complementary par 4s at Pacific Dunes.   One or the other is always dead into the teeth of the wind, the other straight downwind. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2011, 06:10:39 PM »
I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.

Tim:

The 2nd at Pacific is 370 yards from all the way back ... the 13th is 444.  They never use the back tee or even the next-to-back tee on the 13th hole during the summer months, they always have that hole playing from up at 380 yards, which is why you think they're too similar.

Tim Bert

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2011, 06:56:59 PM »
Tom - 2 and 13, even when the yardages are playing compacted with less difference always play very different for me which is why I included them in the two different lists. 2 plays more like a longish short par 4 and 13 plays like a shortish long par 4, at least for me in the summer wind. 13 is more aesthetically pleasing and one of my favorites, but I think I actually prefer 2, which is one of my short listers on a course full of favorites.

Brian Joines

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2011, 11:05:12 PM »

I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either.  I've got several favorites there.


Tom,

You beat me to it.  I've been following to see if anyone would mention Lost Dunes and was going to add my 2 cents this morning.

I may elect different holes than most from Lost Dunes, but my favorites are:

#1 - A short par 4 with a very generous fairway unless you're driver carries too far then you need to take the more aggressive line down the left side.  What I've always loved about this hole is the green.  Even with 75 yards in to this green, it's difficult to get the ball close to every hole location except the middle back.  The green is a low profile, lay of the land roller coaster.  Awesome.

#14 - Again, a short par 4 that just gets into the player's head right from the tee.  Water all down the right side, the aggressive play is hugging the water which gives a much better angle into the green.  Fairway is wider than it looks, but your eye looks right down the right side.  Another great low profile hole.  Like #1, nothing flashy (the view from the tee is great) but a blast.

#15 - So many options on this par 5.  Be as aggressive as you can handle on the tee shot then make smart decisions up the fairway.  Reachable in 2 for stronger hitters but lots of trouble around the green.  Again, a low profile green that will shrug mediocre shots off.  The green set on top of the hill is a wonderful example of restraint.  No flashy bunkers or extravagant mounding.  A fun hole with an incredible view from the green back down the fairway.

Ken

Lost Dunes does have a lot of excellent holes. There are a few more that I would add to the list.

#2 (par 4)

A tough hole that starts with a demanding tee shot. With the big dunes left and behind the green, it occupies what may be the best part of the property.  The left side of the green is shielded from view by a dune and it makes the for a challenging approach from the left. To find the best angle to the green, the tee shot has to challenge the fairway bunkers on the right.


The par 5's at Lost Dunes offer some great variety. I love #15 too.

Hole #4 (par 5)

This is probably the hole that generates the most discussion, mainly because of the wild green. I know that I've never seen another green like it. The back tier sits atop about a 10 foot slope and the green is full of wild interior bumps and rolls. For more golfers, this is a 3-shot hole that can be played many different ways. The proper strategy is heavily dictated by the day's pin placement and wind direction. There is plenty of fairway room to set up an approach from many different angles and distances. It's a really fun golf hole.


** #7 at Ballyneal is still my favorite Doak hole and probably my favorite hole, period.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:16:06 PM by Brian Joines »

Brian Joines

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2011, 11:14:39 PM »

P5:  Ballyneal #13  What's that you say?  This isn't a par 5?  Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen.  The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back.  Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face.  If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there.  If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole.  But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green.  The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past.  I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break.  The caddies don't either.


This is one that I didn't expect to see as a "best par 5." On my last visit, we played this from the front tees and our group had a couple 2-putt birdies, a bogey and a double. It's not a bad short par-4 either.




Ben Sims

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2011, 11:25:55 PM »

P5:  Ballyneal #13  What's that you say?  This isn't a par 5?  Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen.  The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back.  Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face.  If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there.  If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole.  But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green.  The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past.  I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break.  The caddies don't either.


This is one that I didn't expect to see as a "best par 5." On my last visit, we played this from the front tees and our group had a couple 2-putt birdies, a bogey and a double. It's not a bad short par-4 either.





Brian,

When played from as far back as possible, I think #13 is a better par 5 than #4 or #16 based on the second shot.  The hardest shot to design for in all of golf may be the second shot on a par 5 and from 250+yds, the second at 13 is very, very good.  #8 at Ballyneal may be as good a par 5 as #13, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as folks around here might think.

With all of that said, #8 and #13 (at its longest) are better par 5's than any others I've played from Renaissance.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:27:44 PM by Ben Sims »

Michael Robin

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2011, 04:55:29 AM »
Par3s:
11 at Pacific Dunes
7 at Barnbougle
6 at Cape Kidnappers
2 at Old Macdonald

Par 4s -  short
6 at Pacific Dunes
7 at Ballyneal
4 at Barnbougle
16 at Pacific Dunes

Par 4s - long
13 at Pacific Dunes
16 at Old Macdonald
16 at Rock Creek
18 at Stone Eagle

Par 5s
17 at Old Macdonald
10 at Rock Creek
8 at Ballyneal
15 at Cape Kidnappers

Steve Salmen

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »
13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.

Tim Nugent

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2011, 10:20:33 AM »
I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either.  I've got several favorites there.

Okay Tom, I'll bite.

LD - Best stretch, 2-4 (a 4,3,and 5). I feel holes need to be taken in context with what preceeds and follows. A stellar hole that is bookended by a couple duds doesn't quite measure up.
Also liked 7 & 9.  On the back, 13,15 (and 17&18 - although unflashy, 2 very solid 4's).
Coasting is a downhill process

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2011, 10:50:56 AM »
13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.



Steve, a little curious what you think the two holes have in common other than the distance?

To me #13 at Pacific Dunes is two long whacks up a reasonably smooth fairway to a large, not terribly interesting green.   There's a lot of great scenery left and right, but not really a lot of strategy.  Hit is straight and far.

Foxy at Dornoch has a ton of broken ground and rough on the line of instinct and an elevated green that requires a lot of thought and short game skill to negotiate to make a par.

Both good holes, Foxy much more difficult.

If I had to compare a Pacific Dunes hole to Foxy, I'd probably be thinking more about #7 with all that trouble out front.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 10:52:58 AM by Bill_McBride »

Steve Salmen

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2011, 01:31:23 PM »
Bill,

These are the similarities with the two holes:
-distance
-both favor a draw off the tee
-both favor a shot that runs towards the hole due to wind and firmness of surface
-but the main reason is that both are very natural holes. A golf hole was just waiting to be cut and seeded without the need for a dozer (though Tom would correct me if I'm mistaken)

Interesting your thoughts.  I think 13 at Pac  is much more difficult.  Hard as Foxy is, I seldom make more than 5.  13 I'll take five every time.  7 at Dornoch is ridiculously easy compared to 13 at Pac (to me) but I've played Dornoch a lot of times and Pacific only 6 times over 9 years.

IMO the two places to miss your second at Foxy is long and right or short and left. Almost anywhere the flag is, you can give yourself a par putt.  Not many  easy hole locations due to shape, size and weird undulations.

I hope you and your family had a nice Christmas.

Steve

Bill_McBride

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2011, 01:40:11 PM »
Bill,

These are the similarities with the two holes:
-distance
-both favor a draw off the tee
-both favor a shot that runs towards the hole due to wind and firmness of surface
-but the main reason is that both are very natural holes. A golf hole was just waiting to be cut and seeded without the need for a dozer (though Tom would correct me if I'm mistaken)

Interesting your thoughts.  I think 13 at Pac  is much more difficult.  Hard as Foxy is, I seldom make more than 5.  13 I'll take five every time.  7 at Dornoch is ridiculously easy compared to 13 at Pac (to me) but I've played Dornoch a lot of times and Pacific only 6 times over 9 years.

IMO the two places to miss your second at Foxy is long and right or short and left. Almost anywhere the flag is, you can give yourself a par putt.  Not many  easy hole locations due to shape, size and weird undulations.

I hope you and your family had a nice Christmas.

Steve

I was talking about #7 at Pacific Dunes as Doak's "Foxy" because of all the broken ground out in front, like "Foxy" in that respect.  

I can't conceive of playing a running second on Foxy across all that broken ground and rough, except to a way far left pin.  In my three plays I hit my second hole high out left in the fairway and pitched on every time.  Made a four and two fives, very happily!

Very nice Christmas thanks.  Happy New Year!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2011, 01:47:52 PM »
13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.


Actually, the green site of the 15th hole at Pacific Dunes reminded me of Foxy at Royal Dornoch from the moment I first saw it on the plan, when it was still too covered in gorse to get a good sense of it.  It was much higher originally than it is now; we cut it down to a height where you could try to bounce in a long second shot, although the angle of the green is not as severe (shallow) as at Dornoch.

And to Bill:  the little dunes on the approach to #7 at Pacific are all untouched, but the green actually required some significant shaping work to make it playable.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2011, 03:37:59 PM »
I am going to pick just one hole...13 at Pacific Dunes..which I think is one of the best ten par four holes anywhere in the world..everything about the hole is perfect to my eye...love the approach into the green, the green complex itself and the great look it gives you off the tee.

Carl Rogers

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2011, 04:58:53 PM »
I would like to suggest another thread for TD's best holes prior to PD.  (Rawls Course was after PD? right?) Where would they be?  Stonewall? Lost Dunes? High Pointe?

I know Beechtree got some play prior to NLE.  No memorable or very good or even good holes there?  Not enough play there??

Is there a good hole at Charlotte Golf Links?  Like Riverfront, insufficient play, to render an opinion?  Or do these course come with too many warning labels (or unfortunate contraints)?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »
I would like to suggest another thread for TD's best holes prior to PD.  (Rawls Course was after PD? right?) Where would they be?  Stonewall? Lost Dunes? High Pointe?

I know Beechtree got some play prior to NLE.  No memorable or very good or even good holes there?  Not enough play there??

Is there a good hole at Charlotte Golf Links?  Like Riverfront, insufficient play, to render an opinion?  Or do these course come with too many warning labels (or unfortunate contraints)?

The best hole at Beechtree was probably the par-4 14th.  I don't know if anything at Charlotte Golf Links would have made the list or not.  High Pointe, Black Forest, Stonewall, Apache Stronghold and Lost Dunes would have been the stalwarts, each contributing multiple holes.  Quail Crossing might have placed one hole, the par-4 12th.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2011, 05:30:46 PM »
I liked #3 at Beechtree best - short par 4 with a green that falls away
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2011, 09:57:50 PM »
Of the 8 Doaks I've played (PD, OM, StAB, BD, BN, CG, LD, HP), here are my (current) two favorites by hole number:

1.      Ballyneal (4)      St. Andrew's Beach (4)
2.      Pac Dunes (4)      Ballyneal (4)
3.      Old Mac (4)      Pac Dunes (5)
4.      Barnbougle (4)      Lost Dunes (5)
5.      St. Andrew's Beach (4)   Old Mac (3)
6.      Pac Dunes (4)      Barnbougle (4)
7.      Ballyneal (4)      Barnbougle (3)
8.      Ballyneal (5)      St. Andrew's Beach (4)
9.      Barnbougle (4)      Old Mac (4)
10.    Ballyneal (4)    Barnbougle (4)
11.    Pac Dunes (3)      High Pointe (3)
12.    Barnbougle (4)      Ballyneal (4)     
13.    Pac Dunes (4)      Barnbougle (3)
14.    Pac Dunes (3)      Ballyneal (4)
15.    Barnbougle (4)      Ballyneal (3)
16.    Ballyneal (5)     Old Mac (4)
17.    Ballyneal (4)      Barnbougle  (4)
18.    Barnbougle (4)      Old Mac (5)
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Wade Schueneman

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2011, 10:36:57 PM »
Was anyone really impressed by 13 at Barnbougle or High Point?  I thought that those holes might get some love.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2011, 05:59:46 AM »
Wade

I think at least three Aussies who have commented on the thread rate # 13 Barnbougle that and also # 7

Jim Franklin

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2011, 08:39:01 AM »
Best par 3 - #17 Rock Creek
Best par 4 - #7 Rock Creek/#13 Pac Dunes/#7 Ballyneal (too close to call)
Best par 5 - #10 Rock Creek/#8 Ballyneal
Mr Hurricane

Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2011, 10:25:27 AM »
Played: BD, CK, StAB, BN, PD, OM - favorites this month are...

KP: sorry you didn't get to see the real Ballyneal underneath all that snow.

Almost every hole mentioned below have internal undulations and contours throughout the green complexes that add a layer of skill and fun to all of these great holes.

Par 3:
 7 Barnbougle - short is better, more decisions required on the tee, more often the golfer is tempted to try a shot they may not normally play, left is DEAD, short is a reasonable miss and setting is beautiful; 
13 Barnbougle - so many different pin positions on this most fun of golf greens, requiring all sorts of different shots, and many different ways to get it close, and then even if you don't get it close, getting into to the hole is great fun as well, sits perfectly into the Dune behind; 
11 Pac Dunes for ocean/cliff short and treacherous and 3 Ballyneal for a great little fun hole on a 90 degree turn that seems to fit just right into the routing and you just know that something special is waiting on the other side of those dunes...

Wind depending...
Short Par 4:
 7 Ballyneal; just a super short par 4, with a few decisions to made on the tee, but the green is very special, and I liked the opportunity to glimpse where the flag is walking down 4. Again fits nicely into the flow of holes.
2 St Andrews Beach: again , multiple club choice and shot decision off the tee, troubling mound short of green, nice bunkering as KP said - I like the trench coffin type bunker at the back, and the wilder sand and flora short left.
4 Barnbougle;  Just one of the best looking short par 4's I have seen, with fun shots to be had everywhere, a high road and a low road, and a dell green and easily the highest and steepest bunker face ever seen.

Longer Par 4:
15 Barnbougle- not super long, but is often into the breeze, one of my favorite approach shots on any course. Trouble to be found all around.
7 Old Mac - Ocean, again another favorite approach shot, cool bunker over the back, and the view...
 17 Barnbougle/4 Pac Dunes- again, both not overly long, depending on the prevailing, but fun and challenging tee shots, both heavily affecting by large bodies of water! Cool green sites also, 17 BD can bite very hard at the pointy end, especially in a tight match and a tricky front pin.

Par 5:
8 Ballyneal - super looking, excellent use of cross bunkering, it feels like a figure 8, and then the green is wild and can turn eagle opportunities into bogies in a flash, just seems to fit so nicely into the chop hills, and I like that you can see the green and flag from the tee on a par five.
15 Cape Kidnappers - never have I had such fear of hitting or spraying a shot either direction off the entire length of the hole, 140m drop off the left and 20m to the right, to a green perched on the fingernail of a cliff edge, as dramatic as you can get, and the only time I will ever enjoy play a hole that is 549-594yards long (that may be meters!)
4 & 16 Ballyneal - loved both of these holes, for different reasons, and didn't want to leave either out, 4 just to unveil it all before you, and then challenges the entire length of the hole to an exciting green. And 16, a tee shot where position is key to set up a short cut across the chop hills to the green in two, maybe one of my favorite approach (2nd) shots on a Renaissance P5

Opening hole: 
Cape Kidnappers: downhill reverse 's' shaped hole with interesting shots required and not what you expect from the cliff edged ocean views of CK, nice little cluster of bunkers green side, and a rally great way to begin a round with it all layer before you.
Old Macdonald: tons of room off the tee for an opening tee shot, but get the focus working early for the wonderful double plateau green.

Closing hole:
St Andrews Beach - raised tee, to a deceiving set of bunkering, and what seems like a ton of room, but position is key to get to some of the interesting pins of this finishing green snuggled into the ridge line, great wide green and excellent bunkers...pity about the long haul up the hill home.
Old Macdonald - seemingly wide fairway to a massive punch bowl green site, a perfect finish for mine, no bunkers, just some good chipping and putting to finsh the round off.
@theflatsticker

Carl Rogers

Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2011, 04:15:23 PM »
par 5's .... Having played Beechtree (nle), OM, & PD and live 10 minutes from Riverfront, the 14th at Riverfront is a better hole than any of the Beechtree trio of 5 pars does not come far behind any at Bandon.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Best Holes by Architect: Tom Doak
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2011, 04:34:55 PM »
Lots of great holes nominated, but I would add Stone Eagle #18 as one of his best par 4's. Excellent risk/reward tee shot and a very demanding uphill second shot. Perhaps the best par 4 1/2 hole by Tom. I remember hitting and excellent drive and a career 5 wood to reach the green in two.

 

« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 04:37:32 PM by Bill Brightly »