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JESII

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2011, 01:11:05 PM »
The problem, David, is that Brown makes it clear he was reading Cumps notes.

Macwood repeatedly said every source other than AWT contradicted the train story. As the evidence has been revealed it's clear that not only was Macwood fabricating Carr and Baker's support for the hunting story but he intentionally left Brown out who makes it clear that Tillinghast's story gives an excellent description.

These three men knew more about the origins of Pine Valley than any other 10.

JESII

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »
David, I'm no hunter so bear with me but the reports are that 20 acres of swampland was to be converted to lake(s). This had to have been the bottom part of the golf course near 14 - 17 today. THis also happens to be the best place to grasp the scale of the property because of the steep incline up to the 14th tee, the long high ridge between the present 15th hole and the 12/13 up above and the sweeping valley from that ridge across to the 16th and 17th holes. It would have been striking from the train tracks which at that spot (near the current 14th gree/15th tee) are on a bed 15 feet above grade.

If Crump was hunting on this property, why would he spend his time down in the swamp?

So my reading of Tillinghast is that the moment the land fully intrigued him for his course was from the train but the details of the land and acquiring it had to be on the ground.

I don't put much stock in Tillinghast's use of "three years ago" as meaning the regular golf season of 1910 which Macwood uses as one of his 5 hollow points. These articles were published beginning on January 4th 1913.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2011, 03:07:45 PM »
The problem, David, is that Brown makes it clear he was reading Cumps notes.

He mentions Crump's notes, but does not indicate that the train story came from Crump's notes.  I'd like to know what these notes say or even what they are, but don't.  Brown certainly doesn't tell us.

Quote
Macwood repeatedly said every source other than AWT contradicted the train story. As the evidence has been revealed it's clear that not only was Macwood fabricating Carr and Baker's support for the hunting story but he intentionally left Brown out who makes it clear that Tillinghast's story gives an excellent description.

Jim,  I hope you don't take offense, but you are really letting your ill-will toward TomM drive your posts here.  TomM's essay explicitly states that the train story comes from AWT and John Arthur Brown.   From the essay: "The two most popular stories come from very reliable sources: the train window story comes from AW Tillinghast and John Arthur Brown, the hunting story from Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson."

How can you say he intentionally left it out when he not only mentions it, he describes it as a "very reliable source?"

I think you are forgetting who is driving these threads.  In the beginning it was Bryan and Cirba, and since it has been Bryan and to a lesser extent you. More than anything it has been Bryan's witch hunt, and it certainly is not any thesis of TomM or me.  If it was TomM's thesis it would be in the form of a IMO, not another endless witch hunt taking whatever pot shots you guys thought might hit the target.

Bryan was well aware of TomM's reference to Brown, or at least he should have been because Bryan quoted it and included it in his list on this page.  You surely cannot pin it on TomM just because Bryan did not think to follow it up with the actual passage.  This latest false accusation that TomM sandbagged evidence he long ago brought to our attention really ought to be beneath you.  It reeks of some hysterical stunt Cirba might have tried to pull.   Please don't start stooping to his level.
 
Quote
These three men knew more about the origins of Pine Valley than any other 10.

A few times now you have claimed or strongly implied that Brown was a contemporary of Crump's and was around at the time of the creation of the course.   Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I am not sure this is entirely accurate.  Didn't Brown become president of the club in the late 1920's?     Was he around the Club in 1910-1913?   Whether he was or not, the passage above suggests he was not writing based on is own recollection but was rather relying a club records.  I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that these are the same club records upon which Shelly relied, namely newspaper accounts.   He also mentioned Crump's records, but I don't know what these are.  Do you?

Travers was a contemporary of Crump's and reportedly knew him well enough for them have discussed many aspects of Crump's childhood and the formation of the course with him.  I am not sure you can say that about Brown.  If you can then I'd like to see your justification.  

I forgot, what year did Crump kill himself?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 03:12:45 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2011, 03:18:42 PM »
I just checked my junk mail.  Sure enough this hysterical notion that TomM sandbagged regarding Brown comes from Cirba.  Only Cirba could come with such nonsense as accusing TomM of withholding a source he explicitly identified in his IMO.   Jim, I really hope that you are not going to start parroting for that nitwit.  You should know by now that if he says it, there is a good chance it will turn out to be wrong.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2011, 03:26:25 PM »
David, I'm no hunter so bear with me but the reports are that 20 acres of swampland was to be converted to lake(s). This had to have been the bottom part of the golf course near 14 - 17 today. THis also happens to be the best place to grasp the scale of the property because of the steep incline up to the 14th tee, the long high ridge between the present 15th hole and the 12/13 up above and the sweeping valley from that ridge across to the 16th and 17th holes. It would have been striking from the train tracks which at that spot (near the current 14th gree/15th tee) are on a bed 15 feet above grade.

If Crump was hunting on this property, why would he spend his time down in the swamp?

So my reading of Tillinghast is that the moment the land fully intrigued him for his course was from the train but the details of the land and acquiring it had to be on the ground.

I think this is crazy and I think you know it. There is no way he hunted the land yet was unaware that he was on large tree covered sand hills. 

As for him staying away from the swampland, he had dogs and was likely hunting birds, so the areas near the swampland were likely where he was hunting.  Indeed this may have been why he was there in the first place. Whatever he was hunting, most animals tend toward water by necessity as part of their regular routine, and hunters know this. 

Honestly Jim, if you read those articles outside the context of this debate, would you come away with the impression that AWT was talking about land with which Crump was already readily familiar?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2011, 05:10:28 PM »
"He discovered the wild site from a train with perhaps an eye for shooting rather than golf, but once he began wandering the site gun in hand, he found the most perfect land for golf, land not unlike the rugged heathland outside London."

I thought I'd finish that quote from Macwood's essay for you, I'm sure it was an oversight stopping where you did...



Let's just say that Tom's knowledge has evolved since he wrote that essay. Since Pat started the "Pine Valley and Topos" thread in about July (or was there a thread immediately preceeding that one) Tom has held firm that the preponderance of sources preaching the hunting story proves it's true...strange logic for a historian but that's been his position. Here's just one of dozens of his posts along those lines...and no, I don't use his essay as a source to double check what he says on here..


"Jim
That's true, but with so many solid news reports contradicting that story was there anyone who took that isolated story seriously? I didn't.

Of the numerous stories (Wilson, Bunker, Travers, Giles, Uzell, Ford, Wind and Shelley) claiming he found the site hunting and/or on horseback I believe the earliest is May 1914. "



How many of these were actual news reports? One!
How many are provably untrue? At least two!

DMoriarty

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2011, 05:17:46 PM »
So now you imply I am fudging the record because I didn't quote what you wanted me to quote?  My quote wasn't an oversight at all--  I quoted the part where TomM mentioned Brown, which is what we were discussing. 

You really ought to take a step back, Jim. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2011, 07:54:41 PM »
Jim,

Tom MacWood did describe Brown as a reliable source for the train story in his Opinion piece.  It seems he has subsequently decided that Brown's version is bogus along with Tillinghast's version.  He has sandbagged in two senses: first when he didn't cite the sources for the many anecdotes in the Opinion piece; and, second, when he refused on many occasions to provide the sources so that I, or anyone else, could vet them.  To the extent that I have searched and found his sources, he has accurately reported what they wrote.  He continues to promote stories (such as Uzzell) as valid support for the hunting story when they have proven to be false.  That's not sandbagging.  Not sure what to call it.

David continues to do analysis and interpretation, most of which eludes me.

Would you like to engage in a two way discussion of all the sources and how we might make sense of them to see if there is a coherent way to understand all of them while weeding out the parts that seem to be in error?

JESII

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2011, 10:12:49 PM »
David,

I'm perfectly comfortable with what I have written...are you comfortable with the fact that you cut your quote short of where it shows Tom to be disagreeing with his own essay? You may have included the Brown part but left out the part that addressed our larger conversation...the train story being a bogus myth.


Bryan,

Short of any real info I'm not sure there's much to discuss. Since these threads have begun I figured the Browns Mills site was likely a family hunting preserve, proving that could help...I'll see. Geographically it makes a hell of alot more sense than Clementon and we know Clementon is wrong.

I'm inclined to believe all these guys thought they were right but when two sources completely contradict one another it's a challenge. If you think there's a route towards figuring something out, I'm in. 90% of my typing on these threads have been attempting to flush out what I see as false absolute claims by Tom and Pat so I'd love to think the ability to move a ball forward is still there...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2011, 10:34:22 PM »
David,

I'm perfectly comfortable with what I have written...are you comfortable with the fact that you cut your quote short of where it shows Tom to be disagreeing with his own essay? You may have included the Brown part but left out the part that addressed our larger conversation...the train story being a bogus myth.

My quote addressed exactly what we were discussing.  You are so rabid to get TomM that you are trying to make issues out of every little thing, whether a real or imagined.  His view has changed over time.  So what?  He has long acknowledged this.  Why the hell would I quote something relevant only to a non-issue?

Do you even know at this point what it is that TomM did to deserve your bottomless animus?
____________________________________________

Bryan,

This whole multi-month exercise has been your strange attempt to get TomM, and from my perspective you have fallen well short, as has Jim.  After all this, it sure looks like he had a sound basis for his opinion of the train story, whether you guys agree with it or not.  I personally don't always agree with the way TomM handles source material, but given the treatment he constantly receives from you and others, it is no surprise to me that he did not go out of his way to help you out with your research.  After all, we aren't talking about supposedly-super-secret club records and he isn't demanding that you take his word for anything.  Rather he is relying on published articles, books, etc.  Didn't he identify them to you?  If it were me I'd gladly hand over the articles themselves, but for you to to get bent out of shape because you left it to you to pull the articles yourself? Well that seems a bit much.

As for my analysis, its soundness has never been dependent upon your willingness to accept it. I generally take your opinion seriously and if my analysis eludes you that that gives me some pause, but frankly it gives me much less pause than it used to before this stuff all become so personal for you.  Here is some more analysis which I suspect you will reject out of hand because I doubt it is what you want to hear, but hopefully you will prove me wrong  . . .

I am not sure I am willing to entirely throw away the Uzzell account because it got the purchase story wrong.  It well could be this was the Crump family's hunting land in the sense that it is where they hunted, whether they owned it or not.  My friends and family have hunted the same land for decades without ever purchasing a profit or any other interests.

Also, while I doubt that the Crumps ever purchased the land or a profit, I don't think your searches go back far enough to tell us for sure.  We know Crump's extended family ran into financial trouble in the 1890's and we really don't know what they owned up to that point or what if anything the sold over the years, do we?   Also, I am not sure that a profit owned by Crump would even show up in a deed documenting his purchase of the entire estate, as the profit would have become redundant.  Also, such a profit could have existed when Crump was a child and either expired or extinguished at some point.  Given that it was his father who supposedly purchased the interest, you'd have to go back for quite a bit further than you did to say for absolute certain that the Crumps never had a legal interest in the land.  

Even if we knew the Crumps never had a legal property interest, this wouldn't necessarily settle the issue. As I said from the beginning there area also a number of arrangements and licenses whereby the Crumps could have acquired access to the land, short of purchasing and recording a profit.    I know you hate these sorts of pesky details, but since you are making statements about how story is absolutely proven false you really ought to consider getting the rest of your ducks in a row, or at least modify your statement to fit with your degree of proof.

One thing I find interesting about the Uzzell account is that he had the identity of Crump's father correct, which is more than I can say.  Doesn't this suggest that he had some sort of source who at least had some correct information? Even if the account of the purchase is incorrect, there may be something to be learned from the account.  Besides, if you start throwing out accounts where everything does not line up, then the AWT story is a goner.

Speaking of which, perhaps you can reconcile what AWT actually wrote with this notion that everything can fit together. Specifically, I'd appreciate if you would address how Crump could be riveted by the land from a train if he had already been very familiar with the land from hunting, and how his first thought could be golf it it was his hunting grounds?  

Or is it your position that the only stories that are correct are AWT and Brown?  
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 10:43:46 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2011, 10:45:38 PM »
David, I'm not out to get Tom at all beyond calling out his fantasy after months of hoping he would have a normal conversation...no animus.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2011, 11:16:36 PM »
Give me a break Jim, the animus is palpable from both you and Bryan.

But what was TomM's crime here anyway?  Viewing the AWT story as apocryphal?  Well he sure as hell isn't the first one to doubt the AWT story.  Travers and the others who told a different story obviously disagreed.   Shelley openly doubted it, as did Finnegan.  Even TEPaul - MacWood's biggest fan - doubts it veracity, or at least he did before this became the MacWood Witch-Hunt De Jour.  (My guess is TEPaul changed course if he thought he smelled blood in the water.  That is the kind of guy he is.)

Yet you guys spend months trying to prove . . .  what, exactly?   That not every single source mentions the hunting story?  So what?  That Tom's view has changed over the years?  Good for him, but he readily admitted this.

What has this been about?  And was it worth it?  
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 11:22:37 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2011, 02:15:28 AM »
Jim,

You are probably right about further discussion.  I too would like to pursue anything that moves the ball forward.  I don't want to continue the perverse logical navel gazing these threads have descended into.  The one conclusion I can draw from all of this is that there is a lot of evidence that conflicts with a lot of other evidence.  It prevents me from drawing any absolute conclusions about the one true story. 

Interesting thought about Browns Mill.  Along the same line I am also still curious about where Uzzell got his 300 acre hunting preserve inheritance story from.  I would hope that there was some grain of truth in Uzzell's story, but it sure wasn't related to the property that became PV.   Crump's uncle, John Crump apparently had a farm/estate in Media, PA.  If Crump somehow inherited the Colonnade Hotel from Uncle John, might he also have inherited the farm/estate in Media?  Might it be 300 acres?  Might it have been good hunting land (it's a shopping mall today)? 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2011, 04:21:25 AM »
David,

Neither am I out to get Tom, whatever that means.  I don't think he needs you to defend him.

I wanted to vet his claim of 8 sources supporting the hunting story.  I posted them all.  Take them for what you will.  It is my opinion that they don't all support the hunting story.  You can have a different opinion.  Tom appears to have taken offense to my trying to vet the sources.  Sorry, but I can't help with that.

As to the Uzzell article, you can put forward possibilities all you want.  I'll not discuss them with you until you provide some evidence that any of them are credible.  There are endless possibilities of how the Crump and dad could have been involved.  Maybe they owned part or all of Lumberton.  Maybe Crump Sr. was a silent partner to Jonas Bowman. Maybe Crump Sr. bought some other property for a hunting preserve. I'm sure you could come up with more. The fact remains that Uzzell got the acreage wrong, the location wrong and the purchase and inheritance wrong.  If you can find some consistency in the rest of the article with the hunting story then feel free to carry on, but I'll not join you on that wild goose chase of endless possibilities.

I'm glad Uzzell got Crump's father's "identity" (did you mean job?) correct.  That wouldn't have been too hard.  If you want to pursue that angle, why don't you check ancestry.com and verify when Crump's father arrived in the USA.  If he was British Consul he'd have to have been British and immigrated at some point, no?  Then you'd know how far back you'd have to check the PV deeds so that you can be absolutely sure.

I'm not interested in further reconciling the train story for you, either AWT or Brown.  Been there, done that.  You and Pat and Tom are impossible to have a reasonable discussion with.  If that constitutes a win for you or a confirmation of your truth then I'm OK with that.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 04:31:21 AM by Bryan Izatt »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #140 on: December 31, 2011, 10:41:32 AM »
David,

If Tom thinks he's being unfairly criticized he should feel free to discuss it with me...him calling you in to his defense is pretty pathetic. Maybe you haven't been paying attention. Why would anybody want, or need, to get TomM?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #141 on: December 31, 2011, 10:56:14 AM »
Pat,

You've been sending emails like crazy off-line yet I haven't seen an answer to the question of what Crump pointed out to Tillinghast from the train...any chance you'll take a stab at it today?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #142 on: December 31, 2011, 11:44:12 AM »
The problem, David, is that Brown makes it clear he was reading Cumps notes.

Macwood repeatedly said every source other than AWT contradicted the train story. As the evidence has been revealed it's clear that not only was Macwood fabricating Carr and Baker's support for the hunting story but he intentionally left Brown out who makes it clear that Tillinghast's story gives an excellent description.

These three men knew more about the origins of Pine Valley than any other 10.

Jim
Have you read Brown's history? He does not make it clear he was reading Crump's notes regarding the train story. I have read all the histories, as well as numerous reports and articles, including internal reports from Baker, Carr and Smith, and I have never heard anyone refer to Crump's notes. Where did you come up with that?

In one sentence Brown does say, "Crump's old records indicate his interest in the property and the possibility, as he saw it, for the development of a most interesting inland golf course under seaside conditions, as the property at one time had been covered by the ocean."

I don't know what Brown is referring to there...that is one confusing and disjointed sentence. I wonder if he is referencing the 1912 letter, and perhaps an article written by HW Wind from 1950. This is from that article: "A few weeks later he [Crump] reported on his quest. 'I think I have landed on something pretty fine,' he wrote. 'It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading RR to Atlantic City--a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the pines.' Within the week an inspection committee visited and approved the site which long before had been the winter headquarters of the Leni-Lenape tribe and, centuries before that, in the opinion of many geologists, the bed of the ocean which covered this flange of southern New Jersey." For those who have not read it the Brown history is basically a collection of quotes from old articles. It is reminiscent of a scrapbook.

Back to the train story. Brown says the train story comes from 'our old club records'; Shelly says some reports in the press mention the site was found via a train (i.e. Tilly); Finegan refers to the train story as PV lore. One would assume all three men had access to the same material, at least as far as old club records are concerned. I wonder if Brown's old club record is Tilly's old article. Whatever the case both Shelly and Finegan correct Brown's train story.

I have fabricated Carr and Baker's support for the hunting story? Where did I do that? I have been consistent about the list of articles that mention the site was discovered hunting and/or on horseback, and Carr is not on the list (see reply #111 where I quoted a post from November). Perhaps there is confusion with my other list of those who claimed Colt laid out the course. Carr is on that list, along with Grantland Rice, Travers, Travis and quite a few others.

I have never said Baker supports the hunting story....he is not on the list either. If you recall not long ago I posted Baker's recollection of events and there was nothing regarding how the site was found, although there is mention of Baker being Crump's frequent hunting companion. I have said several times that Baker is likely the source for Shelly and Wind's hunting accounts, and most likely the source of the hunting photographs. I think I made it very clear that was my speculation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 11:54:45 AM by Tom MacWood »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #143 on: December 31, 2011, 12:35:30 PM »
Tom,

Re your statement that Shelly and Finegan corrected Brown,


Quote
Whatever the case both Shelly and Finegan correct Brown's train story


I am told that the following is what Finegan said about the train story.  Is this correct?  If it is, then Finegan didn't "correct" Brown.  He simply reiterated what Shelly had written.  I know, it's a small point.

"What is obvious is that George Crump, a search committee of one, took his obligation seriously.  For years, Pine Valley lore had it that Crump spotted the land from a treain window one wintry Saturday on his way to Atlantic City and said to himself, "What a place for a golf course!"  But as Warner Shelley points out in his invaluable Pine Valley Golf Club:  A Chronicle, published in 1982, "... he [Crump] knew the grounds by tramping through them with his gun and dogs.  A photo of Crump resting amid the pines in 1909 is a testimony of that fact..."

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #144 on: December 31, 2011, 12:42:08 PM »
Another quote from Finegan:

"For years Pine Valley lore had it that Crump spotted the land from a train window one wintry Saturday on his way to the seashore and said to himself, "What a place for a golf course!" More recently, however, evidence has surfaced that he had come to know the ground by virtue of hunting for small game there."

DMoriarty

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2011, 01:05:31 PM »
Jim,  This notion that TomM called me in defend him is a laugher. TomM and I rarely communicate except on these public threads.  I get more spam email in a day from a certain pompous ex-poster than I get messages from Tom in a year.  Besides, he needs no help from me.

Call it what you will, but both you and Bryan have both been trying in vane to prove TomM wrong about this train story.   You've acknowledged this was your purpose here just a few posts above.  In the process, you two have not only misrepresented his position, you have lost all perspective on the relative importance of the overall issue.  And for what?  What have you accomplished?  All you've done is confirm that there is good reason that TomM doubts the train story.  Thanks for that, I guess.
___________________________________

Bryan,

You and Jim had acting as if the entirety of the Uzzell story had been proven false.  My point was and is that this is far from the case.  This was apparently a point well made given that in your next post you acknowledged that there may be something to learn from the story.     

According to Census records, Crump's father was born in PA, which is why I doubted he was British Consul.   Whether or not you think this would have been an easy detail to get right, it is a detail that only appears in Uzzell, isn't it? 

I don't blame you for not trying to further reconcile the AWT story.  With an honest reading it really isn't reconcilable and I think you and Jim must realize this.  But the implausibility of the train story makes this whole detailed dissection of the other stories a bit pointless, doesn't it? 


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #146 on: December 31, 2011, 01:38:06 PM »
Tom,

So you read "more recently" as being post Shelly rather than just another reference to the Shelly photos?  Does Finegan describe at all what the new evidence is? 

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #147 on: December 31, 2011, 01:53:31 PM »
David,

You misunderstand me, as usual.  Uzzell has been discredited in respect of him supporting the hunting story.  His reference to the a 300 acre hunting preserve inherited by George A. is wrong.  Feel free to intuit whatever else you want to his story. 

Forgive me, but I thought that a British Consul had to be a citizen of Britain.  Consuls represented the interests of citizens of their own country generally speaking.  Are you sure you've got the right George born in PA?  There are a lot of George's in the family tree.

Tom doesn't "doubt" the train story.  I believe he thinks of it as a "myth" and "bogus".  That's somewhere beyond a "doubt".

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #148 on: December 31, 2011, 02:00:41 PM »
Disclaimer: I am not a hunter.

Question:  Do people hunt small game/quail while on horseback in jungle-like undergrowth near swamps?

Around here, I understand that people hunt ducks from duck blinds near lakes and marshes and hunt large game like deer and moose on foot.  Not sure about quail.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Story of the Discovery of the Pine Valley Property
« Reply #149 on: December 31, 2011, 02:25:42 PM »
David,

You misunderstand me, as usual.  Uzzell has been discredited in respect of him supporting the hunting story.  His reference to the a 300 acre hunting preserve inherited by George A. is wrong.  Feel free to intuit whatever else you want to his story.

You don't understand the limits of your own proof, "as usual."  You have discredited Uzzell as to how Crump attained the property in 1912.  That is it. You haven't proven a lick about the hunting, or the Crumps' formal or informal prior interest in the land, if any. In other words, Uzzell may have gotten the inheritance part wrong and everything else, including the hunting, correct. For just one example, maybe he knew from a reliable source that the 300 acres PV had eventually acquired had long been the Crump family hunting grounds, and he took it from there.

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Forgive me, but I thought that a British Consul had to be a citizen of Britain.  Consuls represented the interests of citizens of their own country generally speaking.  Are you sure you've got the right George born in PA?  There are a lot of George's in the family tree.

I thought so too, which is why I assumed it was a different family member.  I am telling you how G.A. Crump's father, "George," was listed in the census records.  He is listed as British Consul (or similar) in the same records.  Draw your own conclusions.  


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Tom doesn't "doubt" the train story.  I believe he thinks of it as a "myth" and "bogus".  That's somewhere beyond a "doubt".

So this multi-month witch-hunt is justified because TomM put it in slightly stronger terms than you might have?   Yet we are to believe your claim it is nothing personal against TomM?   I doubt that.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:36:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)