Par matters - another data point

[BCrosby]

"I was stunned a few weeks ago when first seeing Victoria's first hole and finding out it plays as a 260-yard par-4 in the Masters. But if the par were reduced to three, it would simply be another long, hard par-3 that players would not be too upset about bogeying to start the round. But when the first hole is called a ridiculously short four and the player makes a four, it's as if they are giving a shot back (two shots in Ogilvy's case Sunday).

That simple designation of par, mixed with the right architectural features, was proven to have an effect on the thinking of some of the world's best golfers. Isn't that a great thing?" G. Shackelford

Geoff is correct. Par matters.

Bob

[Niall C]

Bob

Absolutely agree. No matter how a player tries to rationalise it their subconscious always kicks in to some extent to make them "play" to the par of the hole.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

#1 wasn't a par 3?

[George Pazin]

Actually, I'd guess many of them would have been complaining if it had been designated a par 3, and the complaints would have centered on how ridiculous it was to have everyone starting off with a bogey.

Par matters - to some. To others, making the lowest score possible is all that matters.

[John Kavanaugh]

Actually, I'd guess many of them would have been complaining if it had been designated a par 3, and the complaints would have centered on how ridiculous it was to have everyone starting off with a bogey.

From the mouth of the Duke of Oakmont.

[jeffwarne]

Actually, I'd guess many of them would have been complaining if it had been designated a par 3, and the complaints would have centered on how ridiculous it was to have everyone starting off with a bogey.

Par matters - to some. To others, making the lowest score possible is all that matters.

agreed,
Par matters to the weak minded.
the goal should ALWAYS be to make the lowest score possible.

On a hole where the leaders hit a hybrid and an iron to the green on their first swing of the day, did ANYBODY lay up on purpose?

[PCCraig]

I really wish more courses didn't post par on the scorecard. I know C&C tried it at the Warren Course, and built some "half-par" holes to make it interesting, but it was a matter of time before a par was assigned to each hole. "Par" should really be an individual metric, not a benchmark.

[John Kavanaugh]

Not having par is so T-ball.  How about some kudos for being above average, not that par is average.  Besides, most great betting games pay a premium for birdies.

We did have an interesting situation this summer playing a course that is not rated for handicap posting.  We had to agree on the stroke holes before the round.  It was interesting, but a bit tiring too.  Funny thing, it was for a game of birdie ball.

Birdie ball is a game where you can only win a hole with a birdie.  It is a very fast way to play cause you pick up for par no matter where you stand.  Of course with strokes sometimes it takes a bit longer.

[jeffwarne]

John is of course right that we need par.
How else can you score junk?
I'd find a way to slow up his birdie ball game by playing junk as well 

[Peter Pallotta]

I wondered how long it would take to go from Bob's good (but frankly, obvious) point to what passes for insight and nuance around here.    I have to admit, it took even less time that I thought!! We all seem to agree heartily that a short Par 4 is great in how it challenges/affects a golfer's thinking, especially if that golfer is an abudantly skilled professional, one of a class of men whom we dislike/envy for having the talent and temerity to blow it past and/or ignore every beloved architectural feature ever desiigned and thereby to render many of our great, classic courses obsolete.  And yet in the very next breath, we immediately start to presume that somehow it is the "short" aspect of a "short Par 4" that is the secret and the magic bullet; and ignore the fact that the only reason the governing bodies engage in fevered attempts to keep great courses relevant for the best players (and the reason why we bellyache about the lengthening and renovations that result from these attempts) is because scores keep going down relative to par.  Can we have it both ways? Well, I guess we can -- but it is muddled (and unrealistic) thinking it seems to me.  

Architectural features and challenges find their "meaning" in relation to the concept of par.

Peter  

[Mark Pearce]

I'm a big fan of Geoff's blog.  However, I just didn't understand the logic here when I read this on his site. 

As a par 4 it's great because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four.  As a par 3 it stinks because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four?  Can someone explain the nuance that I am clearly missing?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm a big fan of Geoff's blog.  However, I just didn't understand the logic here when I read this on his site. 

As a par 4 it's great because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four.  As a par 3 it stinks because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four?  Can someone explain the nuance that I am clearly missing?

Mark,

Do you play golf?  Try laying up on a par three sometime, it is almost impossible.  I think we have all played it safe and before our follow through is even started our mind is screaming WHY!!!!!!

[Craig Disher]

I think I've played too much golf with Brits. What is the relevance of par when I'm in a 2-ball match and trying to get back to the clubhouse in less than 3 hours? I'll confess to all my unfortunate partners that when I'm playing in one of the complicated games that requires attention to par I hardly know what's going on until I have to pay up after the 18th.

[Sean Leary]

Par doesn't matter for some who don't keep score.

[John Kavanaugh]

Par doesn't matter for some who don't keep score.

Don't let them fool you, they keep score.  One Goddamn good round and they not only keep it, they imbed it in concrete and weigh down every conversation for a month with the gory details.

[Sean_A]

Par is for people that want to keep score rather than play golf.  I don't feel sorry for any idiot that decides a shot choice based on the par of the hole and I would love to get these same fools around the poker table.  Folks, par is an easy way for excellent players to keep score - nothing more other than what dopes allow it to be.  In other words, if one is influenced by par they are taking the notion of suspending disbelief a tad too far.   What is bound to follow this suspension of disbelief is the idea that one competes against par.  I don't know if I have ever heard such nonsense from people that are meant to be smart. 

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

Par is for people that want to keep score rather than play golf.  I don't feel sorry for any idiot that decides a shot choice based on the par of the hole and I would love to get these same fools around the poker table.  Folks, par is an easy way for excellent players to keep score - nothing more other than what dopes allow it to be.  In other words, if one is influenced by par they are taking the notion of suspending disbelief a tad too far.   What is bound to follow this suspension of disbelief is the idea that one competes against par.  I don't know if I have ever heard such nonsense from people that are meant to be smart. 

Ciao

Sean:
Except in matches where birdies matter.   

[Ben Sims]

I can't stand it when I'm in a match and when the scores are all bantered around someone says "par" or "birdie."  No, you won the hole with a 3!

On the flip side, I hate it when I win a hole with a 3 and no one says "nice birdie"

[Tim Martin]

Par is for people that want to keep score rather than play golf.  I don't feel sorry for any idiot that decides a shot choice based on the par of the hole and I would love to get these same fools around the poker table.  Folks, par is an easy way for excellent players to keep score - nothing more other than what dopes allow it to be.  In other words, if one is influenced by par they are taking the notion of suspending disbelief a tad too far.   What is bound to follow this suspension of disbelief is the idea that one competes against par.  I don't know if I have ever heard such nonsense from people that are meant to be smart.  

Ciao

Sean-Guys that decide on a shot choice in an effort to make the designated par on a hole are idiots and fools? Expound please. Thanks.

[Brent Hutto]

Sean-Guys that decide on a shot choice in an effort to make the designated par on a hole are idiots and fools? Expound please and break down the poker analogy for me too. Thanks.

I doubt very much that is a sign of being an idiot. It might be a sign of an excessive deference to social norms or to a bent for self delusion. Neither of which is characteristic of fools any more than it is genius.

But as Sean implies, to a skilled poker player those characteristics in an opponent are like money in the bank. The poker player gladly takes money from those of any IQ level if they'd rather play mind games instead of minding the cards.

[Kyle Harris]

I am a terrible golfer in relation to my par for every hole.

Consider every hole a par 3, makes analysis of difficulty a lot easier since the chief hazard is still distance regardless of par.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm a big fan of Geoff's blog.  However, I just didn't understand the logic here when I read this on his site. 

As a par 4 it's great because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four.  As a par 3 it stinks because players feel like they're losing a shot to the field with a four?  Can someone explain the nuance that I am clearly missing?

Mark,

Do you play golf?  Try laying up on a par three sometime, it is almost impossible.  I think we have all played it safe and before our follow through is even started our mind is screaming WHY!!!!!!

Billy Casper won the 1959 U.S. Open at Winged Foot, partly by laying up in front of one of the par 3s and getting up and down every time.  The rest of the field apparently thrashed around in the cavernous bunkers each side of the narrow green.   That is great course management!

Why would you ask Mark if he plays golf?  Why would he be a member of this group otherwise?

[John Kavanaugh]

There are and have been many members of this site that do not play golf. Billy Casper and others who have won the U.S. Open have the ability to hit many shots.  The lay up on a par 3 is beyond the scope of the amateur golfer.

It is like coaching a basketball team with a 4 point lead with 2 minutes remaining in the game. Any hack just can't do it. I wish I knew exactly why. I'm getting nervous just typing this.

[Sean_A]

Par is for people that want to keep score rather than play golf.  I don't feel sorry for any idiot that decides a shot choice based on the par of the hole and I would love to get these same fools around the poker table.  Folks, par is an easy way for excellent players to keep score - nothing more other than what dopes allow it to be.  In other words, if one is influenced by par they are taking the notion of suspending disbelief a tad too far.   What is bound to follow this suspension of disbelief is the idea that one competes against par.  I don't know if I have ever heard such nonsense from people that are meant to be smart.  

Ciao

Sean-Guys that decide on a shot choice in an effort to make the designated par on a hole are idiots and fools? Expound please. Thanks.

Tim

I have expounded on this many times.  Par is a number.  Why not just as easily pick 84 as the magic number?  One cannot compete against par.  One competes against one golfer or against a field.  In either case, par is irrelevant.  Sure, folks may find a way to make themselves feel good when scoring a 4 on a long two-shotter, but then many folks can feel the same way about making a 5 on the very same hole.  In some circumstances, one can even feel good about making 6 on the very same hole.  The idea is not to play to par, but the best score one can given each situation after the previous shot.  If someone is foolhearty enough to allow a number rather than their skills and what the course allows to dictate their play - then they are playing with half a brain. 

Ciao     

[Carl Rogers]

Par has become obsolete and has been replaced by Stroke Rating and Slope.  Score matters a lot if you want to play honest handcap games.