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Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2011, 02:13:33 PM »
Mike Strantz renovated Silver Creek Valley in 2002, pushing the timeline slightly.

Monterey Pines, 2009, Marc Messier/Kevin Tucker Design Group


Is it normal even in a big metropolitan area to have THIS many renovations/redesigns to SO many courses in a 10-year period???   :o

Matt I love the reference to Monterey Pines on here.  I have a friend who now swears Monterey Pines has the best greens on the Monterey Peninsula...he did have a role in the process.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2011, 02:14:05 PM »
Matt,

I've often wondered if the sheer amount of renovations isn't based in part on the massive amount of money and resources that has shifted to the bay area due to the Silicon Valley/technology effect.  When times are good and most people are rolling in it....these are the times when course renovations seem to not be as painful.

We can also add Poplar Creek and Stanford to the list...they were both either redone or had changes in the last 10 years

A 9 holer in Fremont has also been added near Lake Elizabeth as well.

JC Urbina

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2011, 03:22:25 PM »
Wayne,

In response to your initial post.  I was involved with all of the work in Northern California Pasatiempo, SFGC and Claremont.  Two Mackenzie courses and a Tillinghast.   Also Aetna which was not a restoration in the sense as we know it.  Each had a different set of circumstances and were completed at various times over a long timeline.   So in response to Kalen's assumption that some of this work was due in fact to a slow down in the economy,  of the three I was involved with they were completed years ago. 
The first one, Pasatiempo started over 15 years ago, over time we slowly restored all of the bunkers, fairway lines and teeing grounds that was allowable.  The only thing left to do would be to install the original teeing ground on # 1 and I don't believe that will happen in the near future.  I was just at Pasatiempo this fall restoring a back bunker behind # 9 green that was documented in photos we just never got around to doing the work.

SFGC work was done almost 10 years ago but recently we restored the 3 hole loop, 13,14 and 15.  Some work remains but in the case of SFGC if it was never done you wouldn't know the difference.  I was there about two years ago going over the grassing lines and the work has been well received.  Not a major expense and in fact mowing lines are one of the easiest things a golf course can do to make the appearance and playability of the course more enjoyable.

The work at Claremont went on for almost 10 years and the last holes were completed almost 5 years ago. They recently hosted the Mackenzie Cup where I think a lot of visiting clubs were surprised with the playability and fun that Claremont provides.

Aetna Springs.  I am not sure you can call this a restoration.  This golf course was originally a 4 hole loop later expanded to nine.  During the work I discovered a few of the old sand based greens and in fact next to the 6th green at Aetna we decided to encapsulate one of the greens under turf so it is forever preserved.  The hole played from a different angle  back in the day and is much different today due to a large pond being constructed and the hole abandoned years ago.  Again the work at Aetna was not in the truest form a restoration but this was all due to the land ownership changing several times and so with that changes to  the 4/9 hole golf course over that same period of time.


Mike Benham

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 03:50:44 PM »

We can also add Poplar Creek ... had changes in the last 10 years



Poplar Creek's work started in April 1999 and was reopened in July 2000.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kalen Braley

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 04:03:00 PM »
Ahhh thanks Mike...I guess it is just outside the 10 year limit.

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 04:05:14 PM »

The only thing left to do would be to install the original teeing ground on # 1 and I don't believe that will happen in the near future.  I was just at Pasatiempo this fall restoring a back bunker behind # 9 green that was documented in photos we just never got around to doing the work.

Jim,

Where was the original 1st tee at Pasatiempo? Looking at the current aerial on Google Earth, there appears to be a back tee, east of the parking lot about 45-50 yards behind the current sets of tees. Is that a tee? Is it still in daily use, or just for major tournaments?

TK

David_Tepper

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 05:27:09 PM »
"Is it normal even in a big metropolitan area to have THIS many renovations/redesigns to SO many courses in a 10-year period???"

Matt C. -

In addition to the general prosperity experienced in the SF Bay & NorCal Areas in the 1990's and into the new millennium, my theory to explain the many renovations/redesigns is that the majority of the golf courses doing this work were all built between 1920 & 1940.

By the 1990's, a lot of these courses were just tired and worn out from decades of play. Many of them were choking with fully mature pine trees that were blocking sunlight to much of the turf areas on the course. In some cases, those pine trees were nearing their natural life span. Other courses had seen the surface area of their greens shrink over the years for a variety of reasons.

As you probably know, a lot of courses in the area have suffered for years from poor drainage during the winter months. This window of prosperity experienced here provided many clubs the financial resources to tackle all these issues in one shot, rather than on a piece meal basis.

Just my theory.

DT  

  

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2011, 06:07:30 PM »
Wayne, I think the work at Gleneagles (McLaren) in SF probably qualifies for the list.  All nine greens (plus the practice green) were rebuilt, and the first green was moved back to its center position (away from the sliver on the hill to the left).  Currently the tees are being redone.  I would assume that credit should go to Thomas Bastis of Cal Club for this.

At SF Club, did Doug Nickels suggest the mounding on the right side of 14?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 06:09:07 PM by Kevin_Reilly »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kalen Braley

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2011, 06:10:43 PM »
A course that could go for a drainage update would be Lake Chabot.  Its a fantastic quirky little course.....but too bad its almost unplayable for 4-5 months out of the year due to the general soggyness. 

I usually avoided it like the plague from December to April.

Neal_Meagher

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2011, 08:47:15 PM »
I think I can shed a little light on several of the courses on this list that I was involved with.

Shortly I left the RM Graves firm I did work with Richmond CC to rehabilitate their greens due to an unfortunate mix-up of fungicide for round-up.  So the greens were rebuilt in a hurry and with no real attention to reconstructing them to a more flattering or interesting set of contours.  It wasn't permissible to do this without a vote of the membership and there was no time for that.  The only bunkering that was impacted was just the edges of the existing bunkers that abutted the greens we rebuilt, save for a few holes where we did completely rebuild the entire complex like 1, 3 and 18.  I guess in that regard it was a restoration of sorts because we didn't do a whole lot of real creative work, although anyone from the Bay Area who has played the course would probably agree that it would benefit from a more comprehensive approach to shaping and most importantly tree harvesting.

I can verify that the Graves firm did do a renovation at San Geronimo in Marin County in the late 80's.  Most of this was done before I joined that company in 1988 so I really can't speak to exactly what was done.

I also don't really have any first-hand information about work Graves may have done at Sharp Park in the early 70's as that was when I was in middle school in Mississippi.

But as for Sonoma Golf Club.............I can definitely speak of that one with some authority.  First of all, I know the rep that Graves has on this board for much of the work he did renovating courses throughout California during the 60's, 70's, 80's and part of the 90's.  I know that many on this board don't approve of the work he did finding it somewhat formulaic and predictable, almost as if he was importing his trademark stylings onto each differing site.  I can't argue with that as a blanket statement.

However in defense of Bob Graves, whom I will always be thankful to for allowing me to move to California and to start my journey as a golf architect (and, yes, Damian Pascuzzo as well), Bob was truly a product of his times and was doing work asked of him by his clients.  I know this statement will get some on this site riled up also.  But it is the truth.  Realistic and thoughtful dirt-up restorations were simply not the thing to do as much in Bob's salad days.  He was providing, in most cases, improved design from what many of these courses had become and was almost ALWAYS doing it on a shoestring budget.  Does this absolve some radical design de-evolution such as his work at the Meadow Club (which Mike DeVries has MASTERFULLY truly restored), probably not which leads into Sonoma.

Sonoma is located in the Valley of the Moon just to the northwest of the town of Sonoma, CA and dates to the 1920's.  It is situated on a rectangular/squarish piece of land that is just gently rolling and the front nine revolves around the perimeter in a clockwise direction with the back nine going counter-clockwise inside of it.  A perfect piece of property for a golf course.

By the late 80's it was quite literally a dog track.  The mid-60's era clubhouse was akin to a typical muni clubhouse of that era, you know the type, the ones wherein you are olfactorily assaulted the moment you enter by the smell of half-burned hot dogs as you walk gingerly in metal spikes across a creaky floor covered by worn indoor/outdoor carpeting that was showing its age due to so many patrons trodding upon it with said metal spikes.  This same level of "upkeep" was painfully evident on the golf course with crowned and mostly dirt tees adorned with those lovely wooden tee signs sponsored by Bud's Accounting Service, Juan's Taco Shop and the Ram It On Inn down the street.  The supposedly interesting Sam Whiting/Willie Watson greens and bunkers had long lost any of their original form or function and, most importantly, the new Japanese owners had no desire to return to any kind of historic era.

What was important to them was to rebuild the course so that it would have a steady and constant supply of irrigation water, new spiffy wall-to-wall cart paths because people in the late 80's/early 90's obviously had lost too much muscle mass to actually walk across these very walkable grounds.  They wanted a right proper practice range to help justify the projected $85 green fees (that didn't last long) and a new clubhouse to replace the aforementioned relic.

So how did all of this pan out and ultimately fail to retain hardly any true historic value, like this:

To get a steady source of water, several new lakes had to be dug as it is always easier to get large volumes of water to stay put within large holes in the ground.  The only previous irrigation sources were several very specious wells and a dammed up stream that was mostly filled with silt after so many years and which would dry out by mid-summer anyway.  Now, what to do with all of that dirt removed from the ground that allowed for consistent summer-long irrigation?????

As for cartpaths, which were deemed of utmost importance, we did know that we at the very least wanted to have them intrude visually and playability-wise as little as possible so guess what happened to all of that dirt?  They became containment mounds on the perimeters of most holes with meandering concrete ribbons hidden to varying levels of success behind them.  

Did we do heavy research on where the perimeters of the old greens were?  We should have but that was not done as it was of little importance to most involved (I'm just speaking factually here) so we designed fairly large and undulating greens averaging about 6,000 s.f. which were done fairly nicely as a matter of fact with Mackenzie-esque bunkering surrounding the greens and as new fairway bunkers as well.

That new practice range I mentioned?  The only way to shoehorn that into place was to shift the 1st and 18th holes to the west making both of them much more extreme doglegs than they were before so that the new range could extend into the area previously occupied by the second half of the 1st hole including the 1st green.  The 18th now plays to the same green location but the fairway itself is a sharper turn to the right.  

To conclude I will just say that renovation vs. restoration is a valid discussion to always have and I wish, I really do, that we had paid more attention to the original features just lying fallow in the ground.  They were there we just should have looked for them a little harder.  In the end, however, what was put back together on this site was a long, long way from the sad state of affairs it had become and the client was ultimately happy with the results and it is today a fairly respected course, albeit with yet another new clubhouse constructed within this last decade.  So, you can take Sonoma GC from its dog track status of 1988, or its renovated status of 1991 or its current state of design and maintenance and find pros and cons for them all.  What the course isn't is what it was in 1928.................but never say never.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 08:49:53 PM by Neal_Meagher »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

JC Urbina

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2011, 09:26:31 PM »
Tyler,

The original first tee was located just below the Hollins house to the left of where the first tee now sits.  A upper green in 1929  was located where the first tee is now located.   In one historical photo Pasatiempo had two greens on the ninth hole.  One where the present green sits today and one where the first tee is now located. 

In order to put back the original first tee you would have to take out the putting green and practice area.  You would also have to take down some driving range poles that border where the practice area sits today.  The tee shot was aimed out towards the Monterey Peninsula and on a perfect coastal day you could see the point.  It made the first hole a slight dog-leg left. The large Oak down at the end of the fairway on the left was there when the old photos were shot.  That Oak would have been your only obstacle from taking the left line to the green.

The tee you see was done in house and I believe they do use it for special days.  Pasatiempo is a special place.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2011, 09:48:18 PM »
Jim,

A couple of questions:

1) How big of an effort, or perhaps not so much, was it to restore #18 at Pasa with the bunkers that ooze into the barranca?  Any environmental issues or otherwise?
2)  Did you rebuild the 16th green or just restore the bunkering?

Thanks,

JC Urbina

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2011, 10:40:05 PM »
Kalen.

The bunkers on the 18th hole in the cavity were still there, I believe they covered them over sometime in the 50's.  We simply  sod cut the turf out of the area and cored out the soil covering the bunkers. In most cases the old  bunker sand was still laying in the cavity.  We did the best we could based on old aerials and ground photos made available to us.  The bunkers on the right front of the green may never be restored.  The land form is not as big as it once was but if they ever have to reclaim the slopes we may explore putting back that bunker.

We did not rebuild the 16th green.  I simply took vintage photographs and using old aerials we expanded the green back to its original size. An interesting side note:  I have one picture showing Marion and Glenna standing on the 16th green on opening day.  The photograph clearly shows the valleys in the green deeper then they are now.  Years and years of top dressing has changed the surface of this green.  The ball tends to pick up more speed and has less of a chance to collect in the valley's.

I like your photo of Mackenzie sitting at the bar sipping a pint.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 10:57:51 AM »
JC,

Sounds like both those holes were "easier" to put back together than I would have initially thought.  To this day, the 16th is still my the most amazing green complex I've ever played or seen in person for that matter.

P.S. As for the MacK, I was tooling around and found that picture by accident.  So I thought, this is awesome, I can combine two of my favorite pasttimes, golf course design and drinking beer!  ;D

Jason Goss

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2011, 10:46:42 AM »

To conclude I will just say that renovation vs. restoration is a valid discussion to always have and I wish, I really do, that we had paid more attention to the original features just lying fallow in the ground.  They were there we just should have looked for them a little harder.  In the end, however, what was put back together on this site was a long, long way from the sad state of affairs it had become and the client was ultimately happy with the results and it is today a fairly respected course, albeit with yet another new clubhouse constructed within this last decade.  So, you can take Sonoma GC from its dog track status of 1988, or its renovated status of 1991 or its current state of design and maintenance and find pros and cons for them all.  What the course isn't is what it was in 1928.................but never say never.

The work done by Graves was exactly what was ASKED for by the ownership.  Sonoma has GREAT bones.  The old aerial photos I have from the 40's and 50's show a much different bunker style.  Ill see if i can post one of the better pics.
Jason Goss
Golf Course Superintendent
Sonoma Golf Club
Sonoma, CA
www.sonomagolfclub.com

Jason Goss

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Re: Northern California restorations
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2011, 10:59:47 AM »


1942 aerial



2009 aerial
Jason Goss
Golf Course Superintendent
Sonoma Golf Club
Sonoma, CA
www.sonomagolfclub.com

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