[Jud_T]

Phil it's 127, sharply downhill.

[Jim_Kennedy]

What Ian said.

Sadly, the thumbprint on the one I play most often has either disappeared or was never created in the first place. It's sad because it adds the final dimension to the hole, you must be very precise w/a short iron to have the best chance of making a birdie  -  and if you're not a 20' putt becomes more work than it would be on a green with few undulations.    

[Mac Plumart]

What Ian said.

Sadly, the thumbprint on the one I play most often has either disappeared or was never created in the first place. It's sad because it adds the final dimension to the hole, you must be very precise w/a short iron to have the best chance of making a birdie  -  and if you're not a 20' putt becomes more work than it would be on a green with few undulations.    

Great point Jim.  I first noticed this thumbprint at Yeamans.  Very interesting and important feature.

And I also agree with Jim regarding "What Ian said".

[Jason Topp]

I find even a mediocre "short" to be enjoyable because it is a nice change of pace from the norm.  The very best of the species require a decision off the tee of some sort beyond simply hitting the middle of the green. 

While certainly not a template, the best short par three I have played is at Barnbougle.  What makes the hole terrific is the difficult choice between going at the pin and taking on the bunker v. bailing out to the right leaving a difficult but doable challenge to make par.  The odds associated with each option change greatly with the weather and the state of one's game that day.



I also really like the short par three at Wildhorse.  The green is gigantic but the slopes force a decision off the tee.  Unfortunately, I do not have a photograph. 

[PCCraig]

Phil,

Good call on the short at Blue Mound, a nice hole. But I have to ask, is it still a "short" if it's 170 yards?

Pat:

Strictly a guess, but I'd think for most members, that's a 7-iron or less. It really does effectively play one club shorter, maybe even more, given the day's wind conditions. I would say it rarely plays into the wind -- maybe a cross-wind from the left side as you're standing on the tee, but usually with some sort of helping breeze. I'm really short, and I'm not sure I'd go at that with anything more than a 7-iron even from the tips. For members play at anything less than the tips (@ 140 yds), that's 8-iron or less? For the Amateurs who played it last year during UW Am alternate-course play, I'm guessing it saw a lot of 9-irons.

What's the length at Shoreacres? That looks at least a club shorter?

Thanks Phil,

I'm not knocking the hole at all. With modern technology it probably plays closer to how they did when they were first built. Blue Mound's short's green is certainly more interesting that Shoreacres, IMO, thanks to the neat thumbprint...however you could possibly make the case that SA's is harder to putt on thanks to a hard back to front slope.

While BM was a 7 iron for me, SA is rarely ever more than a PW.

[Niall C]

George refers to a fairly generic short par 3 prevalent in the British Isles. Question; what was generic about them ? Was it purely the length or was it more than that. I get that CBM developed his own generic brand of short holes but I can't say I'm aware of any others in the UK that I could say fitted a particular template similar to CBM's.

Are there any other examples in the UK other than Brancaster and TOC ?

Niall

[Bill Brightly]

Here is The Creek's Short. While it may not be one of Macdonald's best, it has one unique feature: it is Hole 17 and you get a complete view of it as you play holes 6 and 7 (where this photo was taken) and as you play your round you remember that you will have to deal with this little hole in two hours. I think that is a very cool routing technique.

(Before you say the trees should be removed behind the green, note that this is an old graveyard and I don't think the club owns the land.)

[Sean Walsh]

Doesn't have the moat of sand around it that the US "Short's" seem to favour.  As I have not played any of those I can only say that a full skirt of sand look nearly as over the top as a full skirt of water.  I favour holes that can have the same effect without the overuse of sand.

So here's my nomination for favourite "Short" hole.

http://www.bhgc.com.au/guests/golf/Tour/hole13.mhtml

Doesn't meet a few of Scott's criteria but ticks enough boxes for me.

[Bart Bradley]

I started a thread on "shorts" a few months ago after seeing the one at Brancaster....here is my photo:

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,

If the idea is to test the ability of a player to loft a ball onto the green then the "moat" of sand works, and if the player misses then he/she is faced with a more-or-less difficult recovery for the second shot.  It's nowhere near as penal as a shot over water, where the recovery shot will be the third.

Not neccesarily a short, but chandler Egan had the same idea:  

[George Freeman]

That painting is delicious

[Sean Walsh]

Jim,

Completely understand that, and is in part why I said the "look" of it engenders the same feeling.  The playing is of course different to water but the concept is the same.  It takes a well struck low ball out of play.  Also such moating generally favours the better player as they are better at playing from sand. I would hazard a guess that a low single figure handicapper would prefer to be 5 yards off a green in a bunker than miss the 13th at Barwon Heads by 5 yds. 

So my opinion would be that such moating only makes the hole more difficult for the higher handicapper and is not a look I enjoy.

[Bart Bradley]

Here is another version....Lookout Mountain near Chattanooga. 

[Sean Walsh]

That painting is delicious

Very true. And if all the sanded moats looked anything like as dramatic I would be more in favour of them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I would hazard a guess that a low single figure handicapper would prefer to be 5 yards off a green in a bunker than miss the 13th at Barwon Heads by 5 yds. 
So my opinion would be that such moating only makes the hole more difficult for the higher handicapper and is not a look I enjoy.

If that's the case - just think how hard missing the 13th at Barwon Head would be for the high handicapper.  

I respect your opinion, but just about every challenge on a golf course is harder for a high handicap player. I suspect that if you were continually missing the green on a 130+- yard shot to a rather large target you'd be happier to find your ball in the sand than lose it in the water.

This type of hole isn't found on every golf course, and you'll probably only face it once in a round at a course which does employ such a hole.

[Greg Holland]

While not a MacRaynor, I think Ross's 16th at Sedgefield CC is a really interesting "short" hole.  In the Wyndham, it plays at about 165 yards, but it is also slightly down hill.  The green has two fronting bunkers, and the green has the thumb print -- in fact I believe Kris Spence called it more of a "toilet seat."  The green also has significant tilt back to front.

Ed Oden posted pictures in this thread a few years ago:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41080.0.html

[Tim Martin]

If you are fearful of what awaits you if you miss the green.

[Chris Roselle]

The 6th hole on the West Course at Merion is only 125 yards and plays straight downhill.  While it is not bunkered on all sides (there is a creek just to the left of the green that wraps around the front as well, a bunker behind and a bunker to the right), it is one of my favorite "Short" holes in Philadelphia.  Miss the green with your wedge and you'll be lucky to make par.

[Tim Martin]

The 6th hole on the West Course at Merion is only 125 yards and plays straight downhill.  While it is not bunkered on all sides (there is a creek just to the left of the green that wraps around the front as well, a bunker behind and a bunker to the right), it is one of my favorite "Short" holes in Philadelphia.  Miss the green with your wedge and you'll be lucky to make par.

Chris-Agreed. Sometimes sheer terror comes in small packages.

[Andy Stamm]

Here is another version....Lookout Mountain near Chattanooga. 

And this one has a great, dramatic tee that makes it play nicely downhill.

[Tony_Muldoon]

George refers to a fairly generic short par 3 prevalent in the British Isles. Question; what was generic about them ? Was it purely the length or was it more than that. I get that CBM developed his own generic brand of short holes but I can't say I'm aware of any others in the UK that I could say fitted a particular template similar to CBM's.

Are there any other examples in the UK other than Brancaster and TOC ?

Niall

I was wondering the same

How about no 6 at North Berwick?

http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/c_scorecard.aspx#h6  

or 14 at Crail Balcomie

http://www.crailgolfingsociety.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24&Itemid=19
(you have to select icture no17)

[Tim Gavrich]

I believe #5 to be Yale's weakest hole because the green is large and relatively bland compared to the rest on the course.  If a Short hole is going to have a fairly large green, it had better be quite boldly contoured.  I haven't played too many CBM/SR et al Shorts, but I gather that the best ones ask a pretty good variety of shots of the player one day to the next.  Also, because the player has one of the shorter clubs in hand for the shot, merely hitting the green should not be enough to put the golfer at ease about making par, as is generally the case at Yale #5.  The 18th at Old White is superior to Yale's Short because of the thumbprint, which a) allow the hole to require different shots one day to the next and b) certainly does not guarantee a two-putt, especially if you leave your tee shot on the wrong side of the mound.

That said, a great short (small S) par 3 need not have a huge green, IMO.  The alternate thrill of a do-or-die shot to a small target surrounded by peril is one of the great confrontations one can have on a golf course.  That's why I love the 13th at my home Pawleys Plantation, a hole many people do not care for.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Postage Poster Boy for small greens surrounded by peril.
Diversity is a good thing, even on the golf course.

[Carl Nichols]

Generally speaking, I think what makes a short hole great is essentially the same things that make other MacRaynor template holes so great. Mainly the way the architect fit the template into the best and most interesting piece of the property (for that particular template) and the template's setting. I also enjoy that the hole is short and the green is generally a big target, and in modern times rarely more than a wedge, but greens on a short are usually such that you need to be on the right portion of the green. So perhaps what makes it so great is that the hole can lure you into a sense of attack, but if you don't hit a good shot, the hole can beat you up quickly.

Here's the short from Shoreacres, which plays down into a ravine:

The downhill nature of this Short hole makes distance judgement quite tricky. Also, Lake Michigan is only several hundred yards away so the wind is always a factor.

Pat:
What do you think of the SA version?  I always thought it was one of the least aesthetically pleasing of the shorts, given the dense trees surrounding it, the less squared off shape of the green, and the fact that it's not surrounded by bunkers.  It's still a fun/good hole, but compared to others, it's not that interesting to look at.

[PCCraig]

Generally speaking, I think what makes a short hole great is essentially the same things that make other MacRaynor template holes so great. Mainly the way the architect fit the template into the best and most interesting piece of the property (for that particular template) and the template's setting. I also enjoy that the hole is short and the green is generally a big target, and in modern times rarely more than a wedge, but greens on a short are usually such that you need to be on the right portion of the green. So perhaps what makes it so great is that the hole can lure you into a sense of attack, but if you don't hit a good shot, the hole can beat you up quickly.

Here's the short from Shoreacres, which plays down into a ravine:

The downhill nature of this Short hole makes distance judgement quite tricky. Also, Lake Michigan is only several hundred yards away so the wind is always a factor.

Pat:
What do you think of the SA version?  I always thought it was one of the least aesthetically pleasing of the shorts, given the dense trees surrounding it, the less squared off shape of the green, and the fact that it's not surrounded by bunkers.  It's still a fun/good hole, but compared to others, it's not that interesting to look at.

Carl,

I'm not sure the last time you played SA was, but in the last 2-4 years they have done a ton of clearing work on the ravine around the hole, which has made the hole a lot better looking IMO.

SA's short isn't nearly the best hole out there, or the best Short I've seen, but I love the way it's placed in the routing. As you're playing #11 and even standing on the green, if you haven't played the hole before you could say to yourself "where the heck is the next hole" before walking over to the tiny tee box and looking 40ft down into the ravine to find a green...pretty neat if you ask me. I also love the next tee shot out of the ravine. It's a tough corner of the property as it's essentially a hole in the far corner, but Raynor used it perfectly!

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