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Sam Morrow

Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 10:23:01 PM »
The 8th at Calusa Pines is an excellent example, 290 yards uphill. A lot of players consider it the best hole on the course.




How far is the carry over the centerline bunker and how far is it from the left bunkers?

jeffwarne

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 10:23:58 PM »

Doesn't the bunkering on #5 at hamilton force the player into the correct angle of approach.
It appears the green is best approached form the left, and that appears to be the only place to hit it (other than the green)
It would seem to the bunkering should be protecting the left for the preferred angle asuming the player could either lay short, carry or otherwise evade the bunker.

Again it would seem to be matter of execution, not strategy .
lose the two bunkers in the foreground on the right, put one in line with the three birches on the left, now you've got something


Jeff, remember, the hole is only 318 yards from the championship tees.  On a straight line from the member's tees it is probably more like 260 yards to the front of the green.

The ideal approach angle is from the left, but barring a headwind, most players will be trying to get their tee ball somewhere near the green, rendering the approach angle largely irrelevant.

What should change is not the bunkering on the right, but the rough over those bunkers -- I believe it is this rough that will stop some players from trying for the green.  Carrying the bunker (probably about a 230 yard carry) is not rewarded.  No you have something to think about, play it safe to the left (and have the preferred angle), or risk finding those bunkers for the reward of a possible eagle putt.

There are that many people playing Member's tees that hit it 260 uphill?
wouldn't most able to hit it that far be playing further back?
What exactly is that first bunker in the foreground protecting?

Why should playing "safe to the left"(without challenging anything) give one the preferred angle?
There's risk reward for one trying to drive the green, but not so for anyone who drives it 250 or less uphill-who simply aims down the left side/middle(98%of the golf world)

but you're right, they should lose the right rough (and the right bunkers ;) ;))
assuming the green is actually sloped right to left as it looks that would be nasty pitch from short and right from a tight fairway,no?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:31:45 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill_McBride

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 10:33:02 PM »
In honor of Mr. McBride I nominate 16 at Pensacola Country Club, very cool hole.

But not uphill.   Nothing is uphill at PCC. 

Sam Morrow

Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 10:33:55 PM »
In honor of Mr. McBride I nominate 16 at Pensacola Country Club, very cool hole.

But not uphill.   Nothing is uphill at PCC. 

How is that not uphill, it sure looks it from the tee.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 10:41:17 PM »
Sankaty Head, #9
289 yards, but plays longer with a prevailing SW wind
Last 30 yards is all uphill
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

jeffwarne

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 10:46:10 PM »
The 8th at Calusa Pines is an excellent example, 290 yards uphill. A lot of players consider it the best hole on the course.




How far is the carry over the centerline bunker and how far is it from the left bunkers?


I"ve played Calusa and enjoyed it a lot.

On this particular hole, aren't the bunkers simply dictating your strategy based on how far you hit it?
Either rip it on the green and accept that you may be in a bunker (not overly scary for anyone who can hit it 290 uphill)
or if you're not up to that hit something just right and over the centerline bunker and wedge it on.
what on earth are those bunkers short(left handed toe shank? ;D) and left protecting?
(to be fair, maybe there's some fairway down the left side being protected by all that)
Wouldn't the hole be more interesting for more people(shorter hitters) if there was less garbage left and more reason to challenge thoe bunkers. rather than simply avoiding them by playing to the right

The two in the upper right look cool
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:54:29 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Goldstein

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 10:56:46 PM »
Surprised that #2 at St Andrews Beach has not yet been mentioned.  It gets a lot of love around here (justifiably) and fits the category well. 

A couple of weeks back I spent a day touring golf courses in Sydney's northern suburbs.  It seemed like every short par four that I saw played steeply uphill meaning that there were only legitimate options for the top .5% of golfers, the guys who could fly it 320 yards.  The uphill short four is a difficult beast to master.

Just thought of another one - the opener at Bingley St Ives.     
@Pure_Golf

Ross Harmon

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »
#10 at Whistling Straits (Straits) is slightly uphill and pretty short if you cut the corner. If you're short or left though, goodbye. Even Tiger was in the native steep stuff last year at the PGA. Great hole and a definite strategic challenge for any golfer.

jeffwarne

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2011, 11:07:10 PM »
#10 at Whistling Straits (Straits) is slightly uphill and pretty short if you cut the corner. If you're short or left though, goodbye. Even Tiger was in the native steep stuff last year at the PGA. Great hole and a definite strategic challenge for any golfer.

Ross I seem to remember a cool centerline bunker that required a thoughtful play from the tee if you weren't going for the green.(can't remember the slope of the green)

What I'm trying to get at is what short holes are the most fun and thought provoking for players who can't drive the greens.
i.e. Is there more than one route with risks and perceived rewards for those who can't drive the green?
I chose uphill because often visbility is limited and carries usually play farther than the average guy realizes.

Thanks for all the great examples so far
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2011, 11:32:13 PM »

Sam here are the distances to the best of my memory:
A - 80 yards
B - 120 yards
C - 265 yards
D - 285 yards
E - 290 yards

Also here's another look from further up the hole:


And here's one that shows the vegetation on the right:


Jeff there is no fairway left. All of the bunkers on the left are in fact one large waste bunker just different fingers of it. You would be surprised how many of the short and long hitters miss both left and right on this hole. For all but the long hitters who have some reward in going for it, the interest in the hole comes from the approach and mostly around the green. The fairway is heavily canted right to left which causes many chunks or pulls left on the approach with a wedge in the hand.

Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2011, 11:36:31 PM »

What I'm trying to get at is what short holes are the most fun and thought provoking for players who can't drive the greens.
i.e. Is there more than one route with risks and perceived rewards for those who can't drive the green?
I chose uphill because often visbility is limited and carries usually play farther than the average guy realizes.

Thanks for all the great examples so far

Jeff,

Very interesting point.  Most driveable/short holes I think are generally designed with the risk/reward being based around driving the green.

So, if driving the green is the risky route, than there must also be a safe route.  And for a route to be safe, there can't really be that much trouble.

The biggest issue is that for those that don't have the option of going for the green, the safe route becomes the only route.  If there is little strategic interest in this route, then the hole becomes boring for the players (whom likely form the majority of players) that cannot get near the green.

This is sort of my thoughts about 14 at Dormie Club.  I can't reach the green (300ish uphill) so I will always hit hybrid from the tee.  If you lay back there is little interest in the tee shot.  I found the hole boring, but longer hitters who can interact with the bunker / slopes around the green on their tee shot probably like it much more.

I may be rambling, but you have certainly got me thinking...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2011, 11:45:33 PM »
in truth mark, a "driveable" par 4 for many players is their one chance to reach a green in 2,and if all the design thought is put into risk/rewarding the 260 + tee shot, the drive is boring, and the second may face the same challenges others had on their tee shots.
Thoughtful bunkering in their driving areas(with big enough landing (and stopping) areas of fairway, preferred angles, and a run up option/hold the green option allow shorter players an equal amount of enjoyment while playing the same hole entirely different.

#5 Friar's Head being a prime example (although not uphill)
or Riviera 10
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2011, 11:49:43 PM »
#5 at Greywalls
#3 at Lost Farms
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:53:45 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_F

Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2011, 12:05:40 AM »
There's three pretty good ones in Melbourne or its surrounds.

Portsea 13,lesss than 280 metres.  Photo from Kyle Henderson's course tour:


Peninsula North 6.  About 309 metres, so not as driveable, but still a pretty good hole, although it could be better.


And the best of them all, the 17th At Commonwealth on the Sandbelt, a tad over 300 metres.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2011, 12:13:42 AM »
in truth mark, a "driveable" par 4 for many players is their one chance to reach a green in 2,and if all the design thought is put into risk/rewarding the 260 + tee shot, the drive is boring, and the second may face the same challenges others had on their tee shots.
Thoughtful bunkering in their driving areas(with big enough landing (and stopping) areas of fairway, preferred angles, and a run up option/hold the green option allow shorter players an equal amount of enjoyment while playing the same hole entirely different.

#5 Friar's Head being a prime example (although not uphill)
or Riviera 10

Jeff,

Another interest point.  But, shouldn't the interest in a driveable / short par-4 be in the hazards surrounding the green.  I understand that golfers that cannot challenge the green off the tee will have to face these hazards on the second shot, but so what?

I agree with you that golf courses in general (and not just short holes) should provide preferred angles, run-up options, etc, but if anything these are the things that don't need to be in place on a short hole.  If the short hole is really the only time he has the chance to reach / hit the green in regulation, he is playing the wrong tees.

Another incomplete thought on my part, but thanks for the thought-provoking thread, Jeff.

Michael Essig

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2011, 12:18:41 AM »
The 12th hole at Chambers Bay is a great example.

1) 304 yards from the tips.

2) Has fairway that has fescue-covered hills on both sides. If you can hit a straight iron shot, which most people can, the non-risk takers or people who can't reach the green are slightly challenged but have no real danger. Has a bunker short-left of the green in the side of the hill. On top of the left hill is out-of-bounds.

3) Green in a bowl with at least 3 different levels and a false front; back-left bowl, front-left bowl and back-right shelf. Even if you drive the green, your putting will be extremely challenged, with the most creative people (using the banking around the green) usually be the most successful.

Overall, if you can hit a straight iron shot into the fairway, you will have a second shot that you could take advantage of. If you can hit a good second shot, you will have a reasonable chance at birdie. If you go for the green, out-of-bounds, a deep bunker, and a multi-level green awaits you.

Unsuccessful in uploading any pictures. Would love it if someone did.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2011, 12:37:19 AM »
Michael E.,

Unfortunately, I only have a pic from the tee - none from near the wild green and surrounds...


Sean_A

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2011, 03:44:17 AM »
One of the very best I know of is the 4th at St Enodoc - this is the sort of hole I would call supreme architecture.  It has two principal things in its favour.  First, it is a great hole which serves as a connector hole much like we see for par 3s - using a very messed up piece of land.  Second, either option, going for it or laying up, is very uncomfortable - nobody gets a free pass.  



Another very cool example is Beau Desert's 9th.  While more forgiving than the St Enodoc's 4th, it too has two uncomfortable choices to be made off the tee.  The safe play is to lay-up in the valley and be left with semi-blind severely uphill approach over a bunker and to a smallish green tilting very hard to the left.  If one goes for it and misses short right, right, left or long he will do well to make a par.  A great thing is, its often better to risk the trees left and hope for a good lie than to miss to an open spot right.  The yardage of 250ish is so tempting that many have a bash.  It takes extreme self control to lay-up.  


#9 at Carne is another example.  Not quite as good as the above two, but probably better liked by most golfers.  This is a rising drivable par 4 protected by a large hollow covering the right side of the fairway.  Here is a look at the green and the large hollow after a layup.  


Of course, there is always Stoneham's 13th.  A blind uphiller to a very narrow green.  A mid-green bunker right protects against the bail-out to the right (away from trees hard to the left of the green) off the tee.  A very simple design which is incredibly effective.  

I think the problem with these sorts of holes is people just don't get them.  Its no fault with the architecture, its the golfer who is at fault.

Ciao

« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:57:07 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Nugent

Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2011, 05:22:07 AM »
#7 at Olympic Lake.  When I watched the Tour Championship there in 1993-94, I thought that was one of if not the best hole on the course. 

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2011, 06:21:16 AM »
Mark

Some good examples from Aust. which has a lot of the best one's going round. Also add #2 SAB / #1 Lake Karrinyup and many like # 4 Barnbougle Dunes off the top of my head.

Scott Warren

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2011, 06:25:50 AM »
4 at Barny Dunes isn't uphill, is it Kev?

2 at St Andrews Beach is a great shout:

Scott Warren

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2011, 06:29:49 AM »
For Jeff Warne - 10 at RM West (from when it was the 8th on the Composite course)


Mark_F

Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2011, 06:50:32 AM »
Some good examples from Aust. which has a lot of the best one's going round. Also add #2 SAB

Kevin,

Like a lot of holes at St Andrews Beach, 2 is only uphill if you are in the wrong place on the fairway. ;)

jeffwarne

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2011, 07:34:30 AM »
Sean,
4 at St. Enodoc is DEFINITELY uncomfortable.
I love the idea of the hole, but could do without OB as the penalty on the drive, but hey that's what keeps it uncomfortable ;D
I think what I really like about this hole is it takes more than one play to gain a (bit) of comfort.

Kevin,
2 at St. Andrew's Beach looks ideal in that it presents the shorter hitter what lloks like a good line short left, albeit a bit blinder.

It seems that so much of the strategy of placement of the drive would depend on the slope of the green as less than full shots have less spin to stop them and therefore are going to roll/bounce more for those who chose to play closer to the green.
It would seem hazard placement (if given a choice) should be dictated by shape of green and the different preferred approaches.

But also, sometimes a short par 4 that is merely execution driven is cool too
i.e.Can you drive me?
The worst short par 4's I see are where everybody figures layup is the best way to go due to overly penal risk and or awful angles if they don't hit green
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Martin

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Re: Uphill short risk/reward par 4s
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2011, 07:51:18 AM »


Wonderful photo taken by Frank Mastroianni
Essex County Club # 17-328 Yds

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