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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« on: January 02, 2002, 08:16:24 PM »
One of the most famous and interesting characters in the history of golf course architecture described The Old Course at St. Andrews as having one of the worst routings of any famous course.

Does anyone share this feeling?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2002, 08:30:42 PM »
Robert Hunter. I think he makes an interesting point, although I'm not sure I agree with it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2002, 08:55:41 PM »
Tom:

I haven't read Hunter's book in a while.  For some reason, this time his comments seemed either much stronger or more confusing.

Does reading his account really help you think about the routing or is it best left on the book shelf?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2002, 04:14:00 AM »
Tim
No, his routing thoughts really don't really help me. He seems to emphasize his distaste for a parallel holes when routing and the difficulty in routing on a square or narrow parcel, and uses St.Andrews as his prime example. Although he does go on to praise the course's quality and the fact that it is an aquired taste. He also emphasizes identifying the clubhouse site and finding the right lengths of holes -- all very practical, but pretty much common sense. His most interesting thoughts are regarding Ross's routing ability, I just wish he would have spent more time analyzing his methods. Generally I think the book is excellent, but Hunter was more a theorist than anything and had little or no actual design experience at the time, his routing thoughts are not his best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2002, 05:06:15 AM »
Does Hunter say that in "The Links"? Can you point me to the page?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2002, 06:10:27 AM »
I think it  a horrible route. There are no 1/4 mile(or farther) walks over cart paths and dust. Whats w/ that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2002, 06:26:08 AM »
Tim

The conclusion one must reach if thinking through the very ineresting issues raised by Jeremy Glen's threads on the "reversed" Old Course is that Hunter was very right in his opinion.  The reverse course is an excellent routing that some green committee screwed up 100+ years ago when they decided to make the routing counterclockwise.  IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2002, 06:28:20 AM »
Tom:

Hunter's comment's are found in the section on "Laying Out The Course", starting on page 33.

Tom MacWood has pretty well summed up Hunter's comments.  While Hunter's comments (in this section) don't provide much for the student of architecture, I did find them interesting to stumble across.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

John_McMillan

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2002, 07:20:24 AM »
The routing does break several "rules" -

the course plays into the wind for 7 holes, then downwind for 7 holes (or the reverse, if the wind is reversed)

there is always OB to the right, and another fairway to the left (one of John Daly's favorite features of the course)

and has some liability issues which would produce much litigation in a 21'st century design -

the 7'th and 11'th fairways cross

the 1'st and 18'th fairways are shared

so St Andrews is not a "how-to" in course routing.  

I think the lesson from St. Andrews is that it is OK to break one of the "rules," as long as you do so to create some golf holes of great strategic interest.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2002, 08:38:14 AM »
Tim,

Has Hunter, or anyone else provided alternate routings ?

It's one thing to criticize, another to come up with a solution.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2002, 09:33:48 AM »
Pat:

Hunter did not provide alternate routings of TOC, at least not to my knowledge.  Instead, like John McMillan said, he talked about how TOC breaks the rules and how, unlike any other course, TOC seems exempt from criticism.  One gets the feeling Hunter wasn't comfortable with anything achieving this status.

Hunter, as Tom MacWood pointed out, goes on the praise TOC.  I was simply wondering if anyone shared Hunter's feeling on the routing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tim Weiman

Rich_Goodale

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2002, 09:37:12 AM »
Pat

The current TOC (the one theat we know and Hunter knew) IS an alternative routing.  Check out the current threads by Jeremy Glen to see the original (and vastly superior, IMHO)routing.

BillV

You obviously haven't read about the 2nd Earl of Pilmour who invented the game of golf in the 13th century for the sole purpose of selling off his tenements as "golf view" condominiums.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is St. Andrews' routing one of the "worst"?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2002, 10:39:49 AM »
Rich Goodale,

I'm aware of that, but I did't think the question was posed in the simple reversal of play as much as changing the routing in general.

Some time ago I began a thread relating to the reverse play of the golf course, and wondered if anyone had ever played it.

Thanks to Jeremy, we'll get a taste of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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