GolfClubsByTomFazioGetRippedInThisAtlas.Com

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

Your point is well taken.  I don't mean to suggest that architects in the minimalist school wouldn't appreciate an extra $2-3 million thrown in the budget.  It's just that when the request is for tens of millions that I'm skeptical that is the road to something truly outstanding.

Put another way, I think alot more was accomplished at Pacific Dunes for $2-3 million than at Whistling Straits for $30 million.  And I did basically enjoy WS with the exception of #5, where Pete Dye apparently encountered permitting restrictions that resulted in a hole that just doesn't fit with the rest of the course.

[Hidden Gem]

John -

Excellent point in regards to budget allocation. Previous posts making references to great golf courses being built on minimal budgets (I.E. - Sand Hills & Bandon Dunes courses) do not compare apples to apples. These latter 3 courses are built in God's Country where property is relatively cheap. Secondly, nature had already done most of the work here for creating world class golf.  I am not denigrating the work of C & C, Kidd or Doak, I am just referring to 'natures work' in reference to controlling construction costs......

[Hidden Gem]

OOOP'S!!!  I meant Tim.  Sorry!

[Hidden Gem]

DUH!  Sorry, Patrick Mucci.....  I think I got it right here. Third time is a charm!  Happy New Year to Me!  Geez!

[John_McMillan]

Pat M -

As far as a specific course, Tim Weiman can probably give you some breakdowns from Sand Ridge.  I believe the construction budget for that course was $17 million.  This included an extra $4 million which Fazio requested at the last minute for additional drainage to create, "the best underground golf course in the world."  I'm not quite sure what that is, but whatever it is, Sand Ridge has it.  

There is no real estate development at Sand Ridge, and the course was built on land owned by the course's developer.

[Tim_Weiman]

Johm,

The $17 million figure includes all the club facilities (estimated $4-5 million).  So, you could say the golf course cost $12-13 million.

While the land was originally owned by Best Sand, there was a financial transaction that transferred the land to the member owned golf club.  Honestly, I am not up to speed on the details of this transaction, but I think the deal was valued between $1-2 million or about $3-5000 per acre.  How this compares to local land prices, I don't know.

In any case, this puts total construction costs in the $11 million range, including some $3-4 million that Fazio advised spending underground for the benefit of course conditioning.

While this additional expense was recommended by Fazio, it was approved by Bill Conway, the founder of the club, and it accounts for the largest share of the original budget overrun.  In fairness, I must acknowledge that Bill Conway stepped and paid for most, though not all, of this expense out of his own pocket.  From the point of view of accountability, I like that.

I would also suggest that while members aren't thrilled with the cost overrun issue, generally they do like the emphasis that Dusty Murdock (Green Chairman) has placed on course conditioning.  How much credit Fazio should get for this point is beyond my expertise.

It might surprise people to know that building and operating the club economically was one of the founding principles of the club, along with a) a commitment to high environmental standards, b) a non discriminatory membership policy, c) simple club facilities and d) a golf course that would be enjoyable for members to play.  Building a "championship" course or a top 100 course was never discussed, at least not in my presence.  However, once the project got underway, the desire to win "Best New" honors was a strong motivation, especially for Superintendent John Zimmers who has now moved on to Oakmont.

The club has, I believe, achieved most of what it set out to do.  It has full Audubon Society status, an admittedly small number of non white Christian males, very modest clubhouse facilities and a course that most members and guests greatly enjoy.  Not many of my fellow members are as critical as I, except for that "chinese water torture" factor.

On the expense side, clearly the course could have been built for less, maybe $10-15,000 per member.  As for operating costs, perhaps $50-100 per month per member could be cut, mostly from the high course maintenance budget.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

SPDB/Bill Wright
I'm not sure the premise of your thread is accurate, I do not believe Fazio's new designs get unfairly ripped on this site. The criticism and praise is pretty well ballanced in my view -- of course many staunch Fazio supporters have a different perspective and you two obviously fall into that camp. For an architect who is clearly at the top of his profession, he seems to produce some very mixed results and reviews, even from many of his objective supporters. I had no idea that White Bear and Rhode Island were both mailed in by Ross - that's news to me. I have criticized several very average to less than thrilling  Ross courses, as have others --  Miami Valley, Delaware and Portsmouth come to mind. I'm not sure you can compare these low budget projects to a Caves Valley, Sand Ridge or a Flint Hills which are hardly low budget. It seems to be a popular tactic for Fazio and his supporters to attempt to degrade the old folks in an attempt to elevate himself. And I did not know that Fazio was criticized for mailing it in -- do you gentelmen feel Fazio regularly gets criticized for mailing it in? As far as I can tell the most common criticism surrounding his new work is a lack of strategic interest, a tendency to over-shape and some very awkward routings - as well as the consistent criticism centering around his redesign work and his bizarre book.

A very interesting list you have there Bill, how many of the courses do you think have staying power and will be looked upon a decade from than now as nothing more than nice courses? Food for thought, in the early 70's Dick Wilson had a similar list:

1.Pine Tree
2.Bay Hill
3.Laurel Valley
4.Doral
5.JDM
6.Meadow Brook
7.Coldstream
8.NCR
9.Cog Hill
10.LaCosta

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tim,
Quite obviously I haven't played any of those courses back East. You know that.

I would more then likely CHOOSE to play courses of a better architectural study when I do get back there again, hopefully very soon.

But have you played Vintage Club's 36, Quarry @ La Quinta, the Meadows @ Del Mar, Oak Creek? (Knowing that you have played Pelican Hill.) they are a testament to the King's ability to put things in the mail.

[John_McMillan]

Tim -

Re the economics of Sand Ridge -

Against the 11 million or so in course construction is the factor that the course is built on a SAND RIDGE !!! (They didn't have to go very far in looking for a name).  The course is built around a wetlands area, and some of the construction was to keep water and chemicals out of that area, but in terms of having to move land to create interesting golf, the property doesn't seem like it would require that type of expenditure.  

Do you think that there's a sense in which the high construction budgets have become a badge of conspicious consuption honor for Fazio and his clients?  If Fazio had built exactly the same course for half the budget, do you think that he, and the clients at Sand Ridge, would have been as happy?

[Bill Wright]

Tom MacWood:

I'm chuckling here after reading your post.

In my humble opinion, your statement that the "criticism is pretty well balanced in my view" rings as true as the left-leaning media stating that there news coverage is "pretty well balanced"  

Further, you label SPBD and me as "obviously" a "staunch Fazio supporter", I guess in the same way that anybody opposed to Bill and Hillary were "obviously" "part of the vast left wing conspiracy."  

I guess the farther left they go, the more extreme the centrists appear.  

Seriously, I'm not a big Fazio fan - I'm probably somewhere in the middle on him, maybe leaning toward him a little - The Preserve is the biggest waste of an opportunity EVER and Tommy's right, he's produced a black hole in Orange County - but all I'm trying to say is if you evaluate the entire Fazio portfolio, by definition, he's earned his respect as a golf architect who will be mentioned in future golf history books in the same breath as Ross, Tillinghast, Dye, Trent Jones, and Mackenzie.

In other words, you don't have to be a fan of Henry Fonda to intellectually agree that he was a great actor.  I'm not, but he was.

[Bill Wright]

Darnit, you can't fix a mistake after you press that little box that say "post".

It's a RIGHT wing conspiracy, Hillary...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
All the more reason to officially register yourself with GCA by going to the Golf Course Architecture folder icon on the top of this page.

As a poster you cannot modify any post unless you are logged-in. That is why you are interpreted as a "Guest."

[Paul Richards]

Bill:

From my perspective, much of Tom Fazio's work is excellent,
and, of course, some isn't.

The part that bothers me is that each new course has to
out-do and, more importantly, out-spend the last!

The adage, "Overspending an unlimited budget" applies once
too often with his work, unfortunately.

[Paul Richards]

Bill:

Oh, the other thing - he doesn't know what a classical
golf course is!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bill Wright
The title of your thread is "Golf Clubs by Tom Fazio get ripped on this Atlas.com" - a very nice blanket statement. Not exactly what I would expect from a "not a big Fazio fan - I'm probably somewhere in the middle on him, maybe leaning toward him a little" suspect - but I'll take your word for it.  Which golf courses have been unfairly ripped and by whom, generalizations are easy, how about some specifics?

What are Fazio's strengths in your opinion; what about his designs standout in your mind?

You've obviously have a bigger book than I do, I wouldn't even put Trent Jones in the same class as those other four. I do agree that Fazio does deserve to be considered amongst the best of contemporary design, but I'm still not sure if he will ultimatley find his way into the Tillinghast class or more in the Dick Wilson catagory.

Politics and religion have no place on the website.

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

I really don't feel anyone at Sand Ridge was interested in spending money just for the sake of saying the club did.  Never once have I heard any such suggestion.  Moreover, if you look at the membership, I can't imagine any element that would be inclined to think that way.  Quite the contrary, I think there were probably more people upset at the budget overruns.

My own preference as a member would have been to spend less for at least three reasons:

a) less debt (it currently stands around $2 million)
b) lower monthly dues (related to debt service)
c) better prospects for building the second course sooner

If and when the quarry course is built, I'm guessing there won't be interest in spending as much money as was done on the first course.

In terms of what was actually spent, I've never heard any numbers associated with commitments on environmental issues.  My guess would be in the range of a couple hundred thousand to a couple million.  But, that's only a guess.

Beyond that, it is probably an exaggeration to say that the course was built on a sand ridge.  It was built adjacent to a sand quarry on land a sand company deemed unsuitable for development as a sand quarry.  During my brief visit to Friar's Head, I saw far more evidence of sand dunes than I ever saw at Sand Ridge during construction.

In sum, I'm aware of two specific items which contributed a large portion of the $11 million price tag:

a) some $3 million or so spent underground that apparently was beyond "normal"

b) let's call it $1-2 million on environmental commitments

As for the remaining $6-7 million, I can't give you any breakdown other than to point out that there was quite a bit of clearing in the woodlands which occupied 200-250 acres.
Indeed it would be interesting to know what this factor alone cost.  Maybe that would shed light on a cost comparison verses a site where clearing isn't necessary.


Tommy:

I was aware that the time you spent on the East Coast was minimal, but I wasn't aware that you have never seen the courses on which Fazio built his reputation.  Critics of this site might consider that a startling admission.

As for my exposure to the West Coast Fazio, it is limited to Pelican Hill and Shadow Creek.  A few that you mention were not even in existence when I lived in LA; moreover I never had any interest in seeing the Vintage Club.

Regarding "putting things in the mail", the people I know who are Fazio's biggest supporters have commented that they believe he is taking on too much work and that the quality has suffered.  This seems to be a point on which supporters and critics (like yourself) are in agreement.

[Bill Wright]

Tom MacWood:

If you don't think that Robert Trent Jones is one of the giants of golf architecture, in the "same class" as the other four, WHETHER YOU LIKE HIS WORK COMPARED TO SOME OTHER ARCHITECTS OR NOT, you've lost your credibility, in my personal opinion.

You also have the right to state your opinion that "politics and religion have no place on this website", and largely I agree, though your opinion is just that, an opinion.  I think Ran and John are the only ones who can reasonably set the policy.

Having said that, you can't ignore the fact that politics has had and will continue to have an impact in the world of golf (e.g., environmental issues, Casey Martin, Shoal Creek, Ty Tryon, etc.).  My reference to politics was done more to draw a distinction, than to prove the substantive point itself.

As far as religion, a common ground of all beliefs, I believe, is humility.  That's a good thing to keep in mind as we enjoy this Discussion Group.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bill Wright:

I'm inclined to think Tom MacWood makes a good point.  There is a fair amount of Fazio bashing at GCA, but really not that much specific criticism of his courses, at least not the ones you mention.

One anecdotal piece of evidence are the three reviews GCA offers of Forest Creek, World Woods and Victoria National.  Take a look.  You won't find much negative said.

The greatest criticism seems to come on two general issues:

a) the amount of money involved with Fazio projects
b) his record of work altering some classic courses

Beyond that Fazio shares something in common with another architect named Tom, that is Tom Doak: some people get very upset at what each of them have written.  Actually, I've heard people say far nastier, and to my mind, more unfair things about TD.

When it comes to Fazio's courses, there are couple out West that have been the subject of specific and detailed criticism.  Pelican Hill and The Preserve come to mind, but not many more.  But, you may recall that at least one of these (Pelican Hill) was defended with equal vigor to the criticism received.

By and large, the volume of commentary on Fazio seems far greater than actual specific comments about the courses where he built his reputation.  As a member of a Fazio club, I've never really experienced what I would regard as unfair criticism of the course.  Rather, it has been pretty balanced.
And, I think even the strongest critics of Fazio here at GCA have acknowledged that the vast majority of golfers enjoy his work.

[Bill Wright]

One last thought:

I agree with many on this thread (I've seen Inverness, Oak Hill East, not Merion, Riviera or Augusta post Fazio), Fazio's "renovation/redesign" work is for the birds.

Tommy, is he really going to Oakmont or are you pulling my leg?  What could he possibly do there? - They've already significantly cut back the trees helping restore the original feel and concept of the course.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bill,

To my knowledge, Oakmont has contracted with Fazio as part of long term preparations for the next US Open.  Two other architects, Rees Jones and Tom Doak, apparently received some consideration.  How much I don't know.

One of these days I will get over to Oakmont and touch base with John Zimmers about the long term plan.  His original mandate involved both the tree removal program and conditioning in general.  I seem to recall John telling me that concerns about lengthening the course and the placement of some fairway bunkers would be on the Fazio/USGA agenda.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Bill Wright
In my opinion your reference to politics was a valiant attempt to avoid answering the questions. Which succeeded, because I don't believe you answered my questions. You preach humility and then compare me to the Clintons - jeezus you really know how to hurt a guy.

As far as judging RTJ, 'WHETHER YOU LIKE HIS WORK COMPARED TO SOME OTHER ARCHITECTS OR NOT, you've lost your credibility, in my personal opinion.'  I'm sorry but how else am I supposed to evaluate him other than by his work? Impact on the profession - even if I believe it has been largely negative? Off spring? PR prowess? Sheer volume?

[John_Conley]

John Conley:

Try to play Spring Hill this spring.  Pure golf, great variety of holes, memorability, different green complexes that fit the shots, walkable, perfect small clubhouse with the driving range 2 steps from the pro shop, and a terrific stretch from 12 on in (#10 is the only hole I didn't really like out of 18).  I'd defy ANYONE on this site not to give it credit when credit's due.

Bill:  I walked it about 6 weeks ago.  It looked like even some of the long par 4s had layup tee shots.  I'd like to play, but you make it sound like it is awesome.  That area has Golden Valley, Interlachen, Minikahda, Woodhill, Minneapolis, Somerset, and White Bear.  At the very best, Spring Hill makes #7 in the Twin Towns.  Toss in Hazeltine ahead of it (I would) as well as a few others and it might not be top ten.  Nothing against Fazio, but the site looks too severe to be considered in the same breath as those other courses I mention.

If you are from the area, Winona and Eau Claire are worth the drive.

[Bill Wright]

John Conley:

I think Spring Hill is real good.  Compared to others I've played in the Twin Cities:

a)  Interlachen (the best) and White Bear are better.  Spring Hill goes into my next four with Woodhill, Somerset, and Minikahda.  I liked Minneapolis Golf Club, but Spring Hill's clearly superior.

b)  Better than Hazeltine, which I think may be the most overrated "Top 100" course".  Good test for an Open, I suppose, but a real yawner.

c)  Much better than any of the other new courses I played (the Weiskopf/Morrish one that I forget the name of, Bear Path, Edinburgh).  I didn't have time to play Rush Creek (should I?)

d)  Didn't have a chance to play Golden Valley, unfortunately.

I don't know, irrespective of how my thoughts have been interpreted on this thread, I was expecting another pretty, exclusive, repetitive and maybe lacking some shot values, Fazio course when I showed up at Spring Hill, and instead I was enthusiastically looking forward to the next hole as I played it.  

I told the Super and Asst Pro I played with that #10 was the only weak hole, it does have a lay up tee shot and an awkward approach.  They were surprised.  In retrospect, #1 is not that strong either, it's sort of a get you away from the clubhouse par-4 that could show up on any modern course.  Then, 2 (which parallels the highway) is a strong 4, 3 a nice reachable uphill 2nd shot par 3, 4 a nice downhill with green falling away 3 par, 5 is a very strategic par 5, I LOVE the green complex on the short par-4 6th, 7 has the 240-yard carry from the tips over wetlands tee shot, 8's an above average 3 par, and 9 has a very natural green setting.  

Then, on the back, 12-18 are wonderful.  12 is a strong 4, 13 is a great par-5 (and I don't want to overuse the word "great"), 14 may be the best hole on the course to a green that looks likes it's been there forever, tough climb to #15 tee but nice downhill short par 4, 16 is another reachable par-5, but to a big perched green with a precarious false front down the hill, 17's a little pitch, and 18 is a strong finish with no man's land right of a clinging green.

I'm a 4 handicap who hits it 240-250 off the tee.  I played the next to the back tees (approx. 6,800 yards).  On the par 4's, I would lay up off the tee on #1, 6, possibly 10.  On the par 5's, I could possibly reach #3 and 16, certainly not on 5 and 13.  (John - next time you're there, check out the naturalness and options on 13, I don't know how you do that hole better).  Par 3's I hit 7, 3, 5, and 9 irons, respectively.

I agree it's a tougher than average piece of property, with the elevations, wetlands, and a road bisecting it, but it worked and I would probably play it on the third day the next time I'm in the Twin Cities after playing Interlachen and White Bear.  It's really good, and I didn't hesitate putting it in Fazio's first 5 that I've played when I put together the original list that started this thread.

I too have heard good this things about Winona and Eau Claire.

Tom MacWood:

I usually like your opinions and your posts.  I guess we just disagree on this one.  I won't put you in the same sentence as my favorite ex-President and the Junior Senator from New York again.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
Yes, hard to beleive, but true. Oakmont is next on the dais for the Fazio Group.

Why?

The only reason why is when you have an very powerful organization that is telling the club that the only way a certain money making major championship is coming back to town is if Mr. Fazio is making changes on it.

Suprizing since the course seem to be just fine challenging the greatest players in the game, just a few short years ago.

Tim, Who do you think you are b u l l s h i t t i n g? ? ? ? (You know damn well I haven't played any Fazio courses back East.)

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Your post about Dick Wilson is terrific.  It is that kind of perspective that I have to remember when judging modern works.  

I must agree though that RTJ belongs in this group.  He is the bridge between the classic architects and Pete Dye's rebirth of modern architecture.  Although I have played many of his designs that I felt were horribly penal and his redesign work at Oakland Hills makes Fazio's redesigns look brilliant, he certainly created some gems.  Point O' Woods, Belliereve, Chanticlear, and his historical perspective as the keeper of the torch, rightfully earn him that place.