Presidents Cup at RM

[Chris Kane]

Well said Scott, the rush to proclaim him 'back' is nauseating. There have been some positive signs during the last two weeks, but also some very troubling ones.

I expect that he'll win again next year, and might even win more majors before he's done. But the mountain to climb for him to be truly 'back' - which means being the dominant number 1 who wins 5-9 times a year - is absolutely enormous.

[James Bennett]

I'm sure you're correct that the PGA Tour held all the power in the daily selection of pin placements. Do you think that they would have thought up their own pin placements, or have worked mainly from a list of recommended options from the Super?
 

Warwick

sorry we didn't catch up - the car parking on the final day was quite tedious, and our plans went out the window.

On Saturday morning, I was in the stand behind 7W (#5 par 3) before play.  The hole was being cut for the morning play, and the hole location for the afternoon was being finalised.

First, the hole cutting process.  Location was front left, which yielded a few two's.  The young greenkeeper cut the start of the hole, enough for the hole cutter to stand by itself.  He then stood back and looked at the orientation of the hole cutter to the ground, from all angles.  Once satisfied that the hole was going to be cut at the right angle, and only then, did he cut the actual hole.  He has a bag of tricks with him to perform all sorts of other actions necessary to finish the hole.  It probably took close to 10 minutes to cut the hole, and fill the old hole evenly.  It might have been 5 minutes, but it was closer to 10 minutes in my mind.

Second, the hole selection process.  This is probably the hole finalisation process, as I expect the general hole location has been decided by others (mt presumption here, no actual knowledge).  There were two people involved.  I assume the pin was cut in the Saturday afternoon round at front right.  A senior greenkeeper (over 40 years old - could be one of the assistants to the Head Greenkeeper) had a putter and a few balls, which he was playing from all angles to a likely hole.  An official (shirt and tie man) had a hole marker which the Greenkeeper played to.  They looked at the hole from all angles, moved the possible hole marker by a foot or so, tried again a few putts, then moved it back 6 inches or so.  This process took the same time as the hole cutting.  I am not sure who made the final decision on the exact hole location - greenstaff or official.  I think the official may have had final say, as he had the hole marker.

I wish I has seen the process on Friday when the wind was up, from the north.

I spent most of my time on Sunday watching holes 2 (4 west), 3 (5 west) and then 12 (2 east).  I saw Bubba and Jason Day putt off the green, and saw Phil take plenty before conceding.  

As you would have seen Warwick, Yo Ishikawa fell victim to the false front and the frontt pin on 5 west with his tee shot, failed to get to the green and then played a good third just beyond the pin.  Bubba had two putts to win, and putted off the green!  A good recovery but a poor putt lost the hole for Bubba.

The 2 east green sits on top of a hill, and the wind was blowing strongly up the hill.  There was a lot of backing away from putts as the gusts came through, especially in the earlier groups.  Very challenging, exposed green.

Personally, I would have preferred to see the pins a metre or so further from the edge.  However, it was match play and not stroke play, so the pins can be a little more challenging.

James B

[Pete Blaisdell]

I joined GCA in August and this thread is exactly why I did. I have never been to Australia and to be honest, I have really never investigated the world of Australian golf and shame on me. I know what I have been missing and I will spend my winter here in New Hampshire researching all I can about golf in Australia. Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.

I have been following this thread intently since the start of the Presidents Cup and I would like to thank all of you gentlemen in the know for the photos, info and opinions.

Really great stuff, very impressed with the knowledge and experience of my fellow members!!

[Scott Warren]

Pete,

Darius Oliver's Planet Golf and the World Atlas of Golf are a great place to start. Not to mention Ran's reviews on the Courses By Country section of this website and the forum itself, a few great old threads on RM if you use the search function (and it chooses to oblige).

[Pete Blaisdell]

Scott
  Thanks, appreciate the info. This PC was my intro to RM. I've been driving my wife Carol nuts with my comments on the course. Just spectacular!!

[Jud_T]

Scott,

I'm not saying Tiger's all the way back, but the main reason he lost the first 3 matches was because Stricker and Johnson gagged it around.  As Johnny Miller said, playing as Tiger's partner seems to be a tough gig.  And guess what, the PGA tour ain't a team event...How many errant shots did you see him hit all week?  How good does his swing look now?  Now that he seems to have the swing mechanics grooved and the knee fully rehabbed and can focus on sharpening the world's best short game and mental game we'll see how everyone who thinks that getting caught with his drawers down translates directly to a shaky putter is left...Two weeks ago everyone was bitching about how he didn't deserve a captain's pick, then but for one errant round he would have walked away with the Aussie Open and a week later he lights up a brutal RM in singles.  A guy who's won 14 majors and 77 (?) tour events and it's just a flash in the pan? Don't think so.

[Mark_F]

Now that he seems to have the swing mechanics grooved and the knee fully rehabbed

Someone who has had the amount of surgery on his leg that Woods has had will never be fully rehabbed.   Especially if they keep running.

[Scott Warren]

Jud:

I'm not saying Tiger's all the way back, but the main reason he lost the first 3 matches was because Stricker and Johnson gagged it around.

That's not true, Jud. Friday afternoon he came to the 16th hole locked in a tight one with Day and Badds and missed his drive about 40 yards left, then dumped his approach in the sand.

17th he gassed his approach long, off the green and above the hole.

18th he knocked his approached 20 yards long, leaving a low-percentage shot at a chip-in to try to halve the match.

He did not play those three crucial holes at all wisely and did not execute well.

That all came after he left himself a great look at birdie on 12 and never looked like holing it.

Saturday afternoon he again went to water facing Kim and Yang, missing plenty of crucial putts down the stretch.

How many errant shots did you see him hit all week?  How good does his swing look now?

See above. He missed plenty of shots, and -- importantly -- he missed them when the pressure was on and the stakes were high.

Two weeks ago everyone was bitching about how he didn't deserve a captain's pick, then but for one errant round he would have walked away with the Aussie Open and a week later he lights up a brutal RM in singles.

This is exactly the new Tiger, though. He played horribly on Saturday at The Lakes, starting at the first where he had 80m to a fairly accessable pin and went long, over the ridge and down near the water, which is exactly where you don't want to hit it there -- bogey. 2nd hole he had a perfect angle in and hit it over the back, again the worst place to miss a back right pin -- bogey. Third hole he made a third straight bogey.

Then on Sunday he comes to the 280m, downhill 13th, fairway 60m wide and drives it 40m right, got blessed and stayed dry, tried a low % flop that hit trees and remarkably stayed dry again, missed the green again from about 50m away and got up and down for a bogey. Horrible, horrible golf.

A guy who's won 14 majors and 77 (?) tour events and it's just a flash in the pan? Don't think so.

Not at all a flash in the pan. He had 11 amazing years from '97 to '08 and if you cut his day's play nowadays into a two-minute highlights reel there is enough there to impress you, but the 2011 model Tiger Woods makes errors -- and big ones -- when the early 2000s Tiger thrived.

The current model Tiger doesn't put four consistent rounds together in a week.

No one is saying he isn't a good golfer, a great, one of the best to have lived and still among the most skillful handful on earth, but he isn't the golfer he once was and -- despite hearing for two years that he just needs some more "reps", and that he is "getting close to how Hank and now Sean want him to be and that his knee feels better than ever... we are still yet to see any evidence of a legitimate resurgence.

[David_Elvins]

Scott,

I am willing to excuse the misses and the odd bad round as being due to not being fully comfortable with his new swing and lack of match practice. 

I see no reason why consistency will not come naturally in the next few months. 

He played 3 really good rounds at The Lakes and two really good rounds to finish up at Royal Melbourne.

He isn't 'back' yet, but a good gambling man would see his rounds as a sign of good things to come and bet accordingly, IMO. 

[Kevin Pallier]

David

I don't recall him using the driver too much at RM (where one can get away with some width) or The Lakes ?

It will be interesting as to how he starts the Tour next year as a 36 year old....

[David_Elvins]

That is a good point, Kevin, the driver could be his nemisis although is course management is so good that he can get around without using it if need be. 

36 is a good age to be playing on tour, though.  Prime years. 

[George Pazin]

Fantastic event. Validates my decision to flee down under when things hit the fan up here...

If only there were some way to get to the other side of the world in a reasonable timeframe. Maybe something that could transport you there in a day or so. I've heard rumors, but haven't seen anything concrete yet. Maybe we're just behind here in the Burgh.

Well said Scott, the rush to proclaim him 'back' is nauseating.

I can sympathize with this. I was only half paying attention to the announcers, but I would swear at one point Miller said something like "he's starting to look like Tiger 2000". That's a joke.

Still, his play was extremely encouraging to his fans - a lot of really nice chipping and putting and bunker shots in particular, especially in the clutch. I do think he is close to returning to standard Tiger, but he'll never be Tiger 2K (or Tiger 05-07) again.

Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.

Welcome, Pete, nice post. You want to go to Paul Daley's website, Fullswing Golf Services. Paul has the best series of books on golf course architecture - with a good bit of it on Australian golf in particular - available. He's also a great guy. He used to post on here, haven't seen him post in a long time. Hope he's well.

The book available from Barnbougle Dunes is one of the very best course books I've ever seen, you might want to google their site and buy it. It's very reasonable (even more so when you get it as a gift from a good gca friend, thanks Ed!).

[Bill_McBride]

I joined GCA in August and this thread is exactly why I did. I have never been to Australia and to be honest, I have really never investigated the world of Australian golf and shame on me. I know what I have been missing and I will spend my winter here in New Hampshire researching all I can about golf in Australia. Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.

I have been following this thread intently since the start of the Presidents Cup and I would like to thank all of you gentlemen in the know for the photos, info and opinions.

Really great stuff, very impressed with the knowledge and experience of my fellow members!!

Pete, when nyou're up to your backside in snow in New Hampshire, it's midsummer in Australia!   

[Randy Thompson]

Randy:

Come on, lets give a little credit where credit is due. He was four or five under after eleven holes on a day when the golf course was winning in every direction, he showed his old nerves of steel and way out played the field of twenty three top players. He had some head problems, he had some physical problems and he also lost some comfidense as a result. He showed me that he still has it and once that confidense comes back, no one will touch him.

And let's be honest, his Sunday demolition was against the world #49, who has three US Tour wins and has never finished top 10 at a major.

Scott it easy to look at things how you want, like pointing out how he won against number 49 in the world. I look at it from another point of view. We all agree the course was fantastic and the set up fantastic and was playing extremly hard. He shot five under through 13 holes and finsihed five under through fifteen holes, nobody in the field came close to that. He made all but one clutch putt on Sunday. Saturday he played well just lipping out all day and got corrected by making a slight adjustment. I am not a big Tiger fan only when it comes to what he has done for bringig the game into more peoples living room. I lost a dollar to my wife during the tournament, I said he would roll it off the green on his second putt on the third hole and my wife said no. I just feel if his knees hold out and our better the rest will fall into place. You donīt smoke the competition for ten years and remain number one in the world and lose all that talent over night. Its there and he showed its still there. When in any sport has someone dominated for ten years or more? If you would have asked me before the tournament, I would have said your guess is as good as mine if he will win again. But seeing how he managed his game, starting with an iron off the first tee and making one putt after another on those greens and shooting five under in thirteen holes on that course...I canīt help but feel if his knee holds out, he will win again, he is in his prime. His swing use to put the kneee through the test, I wonder if his swing has been altered to correct that. I have no idea but it was an outstanding round on an outstanding golf course. We will jus have to wait and see but hopefully I will be aorund come April and we can debate some more and one of us will be able to tell the other....I told you so! But give me the four majors next year, I suspect he will win one of them.

[Warwick Loton]

I'm sure you're correct that the PGA Tour held all the power in the daily selection of pin placements. Do you think that they would have thought up their own pin placements, or have worked mainly from a list of recommended options from the Super?
 

Warwick

sorry we didn't catch up - the car parking on the final day was quite tedious, and our plans went out the window.

On Saturday morning, I was in the stand behind 7W (#5 par 3) before play.  The hole was being cut for the morning play, and the hole location for the afternoon was being finalised.

First, the hole cutting process.  Location was front left, which yielded a few two's.  The young greenkeeper cut the start of the hole, enough for the hole cutter to stand by itself.  He then stood back and looked at the orientation of the hole cutter to the ground, from all angles.  Once satisfied that the hole was going to be cut at the right angle, and only then, did he cut the actual hole.  He has a bag of tricks with him to perform all sorts of other actions necessary to finish the hole.  It probably took close to 10 minutes to cut the hole, and fill the old hole evenly.  It might have been 5 minutes, but it was closer to 10 minutes in my mind.

Second, the hole selection process.  This is probably the hole finalisation process, as I expect the general hole location has been decided by others (mt presumption here, no actual knowledge).  There were two people involved.  I assume the pin was cut in the Saturday afternoon round at front right.  A senior greenkeeper (over 40 years old - could be one of the assistants to the Head Greenkeeper) had a putter and a few balls, which he was playing from all angles to a likely hole.  An official (shirt and tie man) had a hole marker which the Greenkeeper played to.  They looked at the hole from all angles, moved the possible hole marker by a foot or so, tried again a few putts, then moved it back 6 inches or so.  This process took the same time as the hole cutting.  I am not sure who made the final decision on the exact hole location - greenstaff or official.  I think the official may have had final say, as he had the hole marker.

I wish I has seen the process on Friday when the wind was up, from the north.

I spent most of my time on Sunday watching holes 2 (4 west), 3 (5 west) and then 12 (2 east).  I saw Bubba and Jason Day putt off the green, and saw Phil take plenty before conceding.  

Personally, I would have preferred to see the pins a metre or so further from the edge.  However, it was match play and not stroke play, so the pins can be a little more challenging.

James B

James,

It's great that you obviously had a terrific time this week. Sunday was a bit hectic, but we'll meet up another time. I did look for you in the 3w grandstand as my group came through, but amazingly that hat-sleeves colour combo was difficult to spot!

Thanks for a terrific description of the hole creation process. I didn't see that procedure, but observed a subsequent procedure: well after the holes were cut (maybe 1-2 hours before play) two carts of uniformed PGA officials, 6 or 7 of them including one of their most senior guys on site, drove from hole to hole examining each pin location. They didn't use a tape measure, but compared the locations to a diagram and looked very closely at the hole from all angles.

[Sean Leary]

If you guys put any other players under the scrutiny every hole like you do with Tiger, then nobody is ever going to win a major.

Golf is by nature a streaky game. For Tiger, I want to see him play well when he is hitting a lot of drivers. That has been his bugaboo.

Otherwise, when he putts well, he will win. When he doesn't, he won't.