Presidents Cup at RM

[Brian_Sleeman]

Nice little appearance for Darius Oliver as the authority on modern Australian golf history.

[Warwick Loton]

Thanks James B,

Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??

Thanks

I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.

On Thursday Tiger practiced with the basic ProV1 balls. I'm guessing this is Stricker's regular ball, and that they played with this in their foursomes that day. If so, this would tie in with your comment. (Tiger played with a Nike-branded ball in yesterday's fourball match, as you'd expect.)

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I can't find a link to a routing of both courses, hopefully those with photoshop skills will chime in.

The two courses are very similar in style, although the West feels a bit bolder in both features and contours.  The bunkering style is identical, and there really are no discernible differences in the maintenance of each.  The East course starts on what is the 11th hole in the composite routing.  It winds around the outside of the the front nine of the West course before eventually crossing the road.  It returns at the same point after 15 to continue on the outside of the West course back to the clubhouse.  If you look at the composite routing, holes 11, 12 and 13 are the first three on the East, with 14, 15 and 16 being the last three holes.

Earlier (or possible on the GC covereage) someone mentioned that MacKenzie did not design the 18th on the East course.  I was under the impression that the 18th was his work, and was moved to part of the East course when the additional property for expansion was obtained.  I'd be interested in getting some background on the history of the expansion and exactly where he had a role in the design.

Thanks Sven.   I really can't think of any golf course(s) I'd rather play right now.   

[Sven Nilsen]

Believe I just saw David Elvins in a bright green Masters hat standing behind the 3rd tee.

[David Kelly]

Believe I just saw David Elvins in a bright green Masters hat standing behind the 3rd tee.

That's him. I recognize the ironic hat.

[James Bennett]

David was wearing that hat - I was nearby at that time.

I wish it wass 74 today - it was more like 60, and wet.  Portland Oregon weather today after Arizone weather yesterday.  Gotta love Melbourne's weather.  I haven't ever been so hot and dehydrated one day, and numb with cold the next day.

PS  I thought Tiger and Stricker would play a 'Tike' ball.

[Sean Leary]

Wish there were more compelling singles matches on the docket. Surprised too since it isn't a blind draw....

[Adam Clayman]

The course on the Flyovers, looks positively delicious. The inputs for television are but a pity. Other than that, the golf is sublime, even with the stickiness of the rain.

[William_G]

Thanks James B,

Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??

Thanks

I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.

Hey  Alex, thanks, but I think Tiger is refferring here to alternate shot....just thinking when it was dry and hard, that all who had use ProV1x regularly on the PGA tour might go to ProV1 etc... How come you are not on site?

[Adam Clayman]

Watching some highlights just now, the team of Stricker and Tiger, remind of Tiger's first full year on tour (Don't know if it was Steve's) when they came to the Clambake, and were paired together the first day at Spy. circa Feb.'97. I remember turning to a total stranger on the shuttle bus, recognizing the palpable feeling that we're on our way to see something really special. Watched them through the 8th, where each walked off, with a birdie, and as they passed me, knowing the greatness of the 8th at Spyglass, I clapped, tip my cap, and said to them both, "world class birdies boys". Palpable indeed!

Blatant obtuse Redanman reference to Follow;

Imo, The 8th at Spy, is the best hole on the course, because of the challenge associated with reading and reacting to the slope of the terrain throughout the hole but especially, on the green.

[Sven Nilsen]

James:

Guessing that was you in the white hat.  For some reason the bright green stood out a bit more.  Glad to see you guys are out enjoying the matches.  Any other GCAer sitings at the Cup?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It has been interesting to see the course play 3 different ways in 3 days. I think the crew is doing a great job of adjusting the greens to the conditions of the day at hand. There is nothing better than match play on a strategic course. So many cool shots made by such great players. I would like to see how the course is put together as well. I also wonder why there are not more marshall's on the course to keep play moving and help with shots that leave the neighborhood. cheers

[Bill_McBride]

A question for the Royal Melbourne cognoscenti:

Is the composite course really much better than RM West, or is it done for logistics and spectating purposes?

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

The composite course certainly makes the crowd control issues a bit easier to manage.  Of the RMW holes listed below, 13 - 16 are across the main road to the club and would present a logjam getting crowds back and forth between the two areas.  Using the composite routing keeps everything within one set of fences, which seems preferable over the alternative.

Holes from RMW left off the composite:

8:  Shorter par 4 that plays parallel to RME 1 - a tougher hole than RME 1 (Comp 11)
9:  Par 4 with a wide landing area, approach plays slightly uphill to a green guarded on the front right by bunkers.  Not one of the standout holes on RMW but still pretty good.
13:  Short par 3 - interesting green, but probably not as good a hole as RME 16 (Comp 14).
14:  Par 4 with trouble up the right that has to be dealt with.  Great green.  Would be a great addition to the composite routing if it wasn't across the road.
15:  Short Par 5 (would probably play as a 4 for competition).  Out of bounds runs the entire length of the left side, with a significant area of rough in the area at the end of the fairway. 
16:  Great longer par 3 with an amazing bunker complex around the green.  Would love to see this hole in play.

Of the RME holes used in the composite, RME 1 (Comp 11), 3 (Comp 13) and 17 (Comp 15) are the weakest of the bunch.  18 (Comp 16) is a great addition to the routing, and 16 (Comp 14) is a suitable par 3 addition.  Interesting to note that the Composite routing has only three par 3's.  RMW has 4, two of which aren't included in what we're watching this week.

[James Bennett]

I also wonder why there are not more marshall's on the course to keep play moving and help with shots that leave the neighborhood. cheers

Tiger

play is slow because the players don't know the greens.  There is a big difference in play between a 1 degree slope with you and against you.  Play would be quicker if each group had a local member as a 'greens-caddie' - they don't need forecaddies. 

Others

some of the iron is washing off the edges of the greens - I expect that there is less colour difference between the fescue surrounds and the suttons mix on the greens in those areas.

It has stopped raining for a while now.  There is a chance of a shower this afternoon, but it will be a light shower, not the rain of yesterday.  Strong gusty winds from the west, a little north-west in the morning and south-west (the prevailing breeze) in the afternoon.

hould be a great day for golf, with the greens returning to firmer but not rock hard conditions.

[James Bennett]

16:  Great longer par 3 with an amazing bunker complex around the green.  Would love to see this hole in play.

This hole has got a desrving mention a few times this week, by Mike Clayton and others including Sven (Hi Sven - I was in the stand by 7 west on the early coverage yesterday.  You would be a real nerd with fantastic eyes to have picked me out - LOL).  I posted this composite picture of 16 East last year, but it is more appropriate now.



James B

[Warwick Loton]

A question for the Royal Melbourne cognoscenti:

Is the composite course really much better than RM West, or is it done for logistics and spectating purposes?

The composite layout was first used for the 1959 Canada Cup (now called the World Cup). At the time, Australia had never staged a golf event on a scale anything like that one. Huge crowds were expected, and the police didn't want to have to control crowds swarming crossing the roads. Until the Composite was first used, nobody seems to have recognised how good it would be: it wasn't created to make a superior layout; nor was there the intent to ever use it again.

There is a general consensus that the Composite is superior to the West: you go a long way to find dissenters. As James suggests, the really special hole on the outer paddock of the West is the 16th (200m par-3). It is a gem.

Today people assume that the West is vasty superior to the East. This is a relatively new way of thinking. Had the Canada Cup not been been played on the Composite, it may well have been played on the East. Up until the end of the 1970s, just as many pro events had been played on the East as on the West. The Australian PGA Championship was staged on the East as recently as the 1980s (1984 from memory??): the response at that time was highly favorable.

[David_Elvins]

Bill,

O think the topic was briefly discussed in another thread.

Sven,

You are seriously underating 1 east.  It has been argued that it is the best green complex on the property.  Just a fantastic short 4 with options q plenty.

17e is not a great hole but it is very important to the composite course as the west course on its own does not have a true par 5. Adding this 570 yard hole to the course significantly improves the course, especially for tournaments. 

The composite course has traditionally been 300 odd metres longer than the west course and rated 3-4 shots harder.  This is a huge factor for tournaments. It also has better holes and better terrain with more unique holes and shots.

[Mark Chaplin]

The East is a very fine course but the outer paddocks lack the fine rolling land of the composite course.

As Warwick says the sad thing about the Composite is missing 16W one of the great par 3s.

[Jason Topp]

I am surprised they do not try to bust driver onto that 1st green.

[Mac Plumart]

Bubba has driver in his hands right now on 1.

[Jason Topp]

Are those guys cheerleaders?

[Tyler Kearns]

Thanks Gray Grieve for posting the link to the Presidents Cup routing.   What I was hoping for and would love to see is the entire 36 hole aerial with hole numbers W and E, and the composite routing highlighted.   It seems odd that the composite first tee is out in the middle of the course, but the 18th is right by the clubhouse.

Bill,

The composite first tee (3W) is actually quite near the clubhouse, as 2W (No. 18 composite) heads back in the opposite direction to 1W. I've never been able to post pictures here, but could send you a copy of the 36-hole routing & composite routing on Monday (PM me with your email if you wish).

TK

[Mac Plumart]

Are those guys cheerleaders?

Norman/Couples or the guys in yellow and green? 

[Mark Chaplin]

And I thought the back pin position was tough on 5W (the 3rd)......but then I did keep going long!!