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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2011, 10:56:10 PM »
This is as good as golf gets. Watching match play golf by the best in the world on one of the best courses in the world.

Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2011, 11:56:02 PM »
Tomorrow's schedule moved up 2 hours to 9.30am local time start to try and avoid storms forecast for late afternoon

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2011, 01:18:22 AM »
I have to play there one day. Bucket list, for sure.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2011, 01:24:36 AM »
Tomorrow's schedule moved up 2 hours to 9.30am local time start to try and avoid storms forecast for late afternoon

That's 5:30 p.m. ET. Golf Channel will be live in U.S. Not sure about TSN Canada.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Warwick Loton

Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2011, 06:49:25 AM »
I’m marshalling this week. If anyone wants to say hello, please do so. The schedule has us going around with Tiger’s group:) I’ll be the tallest and youngest (well, least aged) of those moving around with this group.

It was glorious watching the golf today: a joy. I sat at the green of #4 (6 West) as the groups came through, and that was the most fun I’ve ever had watching pro golf. It was literally breath-taking: as they came to understand what was going on, the entire (large) gallery became visibly excited.
 
To explain, this green is famous, with a steep slope from back to front. The pin was placed kindly today, to encourage players to go for birdies. When the green is slick, the ONLY way to play this green is to leave yourself uphill putts. An uphill chip is preferable to a downhill putt. Apparently Norman had given strict instructions for all of his pairings to leave their approach shots below the hole – he certainly used to do that himself in his heyday. Much of the gallery’s anticipation lay in watching who would settle for an uphill putt, and who just went for the pin. Most players just went for the pin: these shots looked perfect and checked a little, but not enough to stop them pin-high.

The third group through was Baddeley/Day vs Johnston/Kuchar. Day’s approach finished 10 feet past, Johnston’s 20 feet past. On TV they would have looked a terrific pair, but both were downhill puts. Everybody held their breath. Kuchar hit a very gentle putt, which slowly trickled 15 feet past the hole. Baddeley, a sublime putter, knew a 2-putt would probably win the hole; his putt almost dropped, but then trickled 8 feet past. The pairings halved the hole with 3-putt bogies, having both had straight-forward approach shots from somewhere around 140-150 yards out. The next match saw Goosen hit his approach to almost exactly the same spot Johnston had, and the gallery gasped at the thought of what would likely follow. Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole. A few players left their approaches below the hole, and then the excitement became a matter of whether an uphill 12 footer would be holed, or else finish as a tap-in two putt.

This probably doesn’t start to convey the excitement of those matches. The green conditioning presented a test of skill and brains. It wasn’t unfair or unplayable. This is how the hole is supposed to play: it was a challenge, and made for fantastic matchplay. Expect more excitement there tomorrow, as a more challenging pin placement is highly likely for the fourball matches.

Warwick Loton

Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2011, 06:59:33 AM »
Warwick, Thanks much for sharing your insights. What an awesome place to know every inch.

My one observation from the tellie is the grass color and apparent texture differences.

Does the increased distinction between fairway and green,make the course less deceptive?

Adam, the contrasting textures are unusually pronounced. A chemical - iron sulphate - would presumably have been applied to the greens recently. This makes greens a bit faster, and gives them a uniform and blackish look. This colour effect won't last long. I'm unsure that the texture differences influence readability/deceptiveness.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 07:03:12 AM by Warwick Loton »

Warwick Loton

Re: Presidents Cup at RM New
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2011, 07:43:21 AM »
Warwick,
'The greens were reasonably hard'!!
I haven't seen a shot yet despite being there for a couple of days (kind of like going to the Melbourne Cup) but i have walked it and the greens look a little more than reasonably hard to me.

Mike,
Nice to see you out there today. Now that you've seen a day's play, what are your thoughts?


Andrew Bertram similarly indicated that the greens are beyond merely firm, that they are really hard. Both of you know vastly more than me about course management issues: no question there. Whatever the semantics, they are much harder than most golfers would ever have played upon, yet a distinct level below being as hard as they’ve been at various times in my memory.

The greens will play harder tomorrow (Friday) than they've played so far, unless they're watered overnight - they were distinctly firmer today than yesterday; the weather's conducive; and I'd suspect that harder surfaces are desired. I doubt anyone wants them very much faster, but hardness is a different matter.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:39:40 PM by Warwick Loton »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2011, 07:53:20 AM »
Warwick, Thanks much for sharing your insights. What an awesome place to know every inch.

My one observation from the tellie is the grass color and apparent texture differences.

Does the increased distinction between fairway and green,make the course less deceptive?

Adam, the contrasting textures are unusually pronounced. A chemical - iron sulphate - would presumably have been applied to the greens recently. This makes greens a bit faster, and gives them a uniform and blackish look. This colour effect won't last long. I'm unsure that the texture differences influence readability/deceptiveness.


I was going to ask about the colour, as they appear quite dark, but you've explained the reason for this. Thanks!

Do they appears as dark as this in reality?

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2011, 08:40:21 AM »
Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole.


Warwick

Phil played the same shot the day before in practise to a similar pin position, except Jim holed the putt on the practise day.

I think Phil meant it to happen.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2011, 08:47:38 AM »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2011, 08:58:48 AM »
Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2011, 09:33:30 AM »
Great photos, thank you for posting. I enjoyed catching a bit of the coverage before bed. It's fun watching the big guys play RM.
H.P.S.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2011, 09:43:32 AM »
Beyond the fact that they were originally designed by Alister Mackenzie and have large greens with lots of internal slopes and contours, I don't see the connection between RM and Augusta National.

Augusta is now a course that stands as legacy to the collective ambitions and egos of the people who have run Augusta National since Bobby Jones' influence dimmed in the 50s due to his medical condition. Royal Melbourne, without the steady stream of bullshit about preserving the legacy of "Jones and MacKenzie" you hear gushing out of Augusta every April, have actually retained the playing characteristics that Mackenzie originally intended for their golf course.
Next!

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2011, 10:00:25 AM »

I got it.
make the greens really difficult...
and the bunkers easier ::)

Is the future of golf now to have a fairway grass(that slows the ball down), a greens grass(that speeds it up), an approach grass(that makes it bounce and allows you to putt), a primary rough grass, and native rough?

Didn't unirrigated bermuda accomplish the same thing there years ago?

I am enjoying how it all seems to play though ;D

The idea of no plugged lies and flat lies all the time in the bunkers may make it look easier but trust me those bunkers are anything but easy. The faces are usually so steep that they don't really hold the sand in a loose form properly anyway and compacting them down keeps the structure of the bunker far better. Even though you get a flat lie these is hardly any sand, only a very fine layer and it is dubious whether you could even call it sand, some people would refer to it as dirt! Couple that together with steep high faces and pins tight to the edge of the bunker and you have a seriously tough shot.

I think it would be safe to say that the average golfer who has grown up playing out of those bunkers will be a far better bunker player than most other golfers, this is true from what I have seen anyway. Nearly all the Aussie pro's are fantastic bunker players and I believe the sand-belt bunkers are partly why.

As for the grasses. The Sutton's mix on the green I believe is exactly the same or as close as they could get to what was originally used when RM was built. Unfortunately though I am told that over the years the greens had deteriorated and they had struggled to prevent other grasses from getting into the greens so they decided to start again with more Sutton's mix.

I am fairly confident in saying that the fairways were changed for the reasons many others have mentioned, partly down to playability but mainly drought resistance. Recently the sand belt courses have been restricted on what water they can use to irrigate the courses leading to a shortage of irrigation water due to cost. This has meant many courses have built large irrigation reservoirs such as the one on the right side of 17 at Vic or the left of 4 at Commonwealth. Essentially water conservation has become a massive issue and Legend Couch survives much better in times of drought than native. Two or three years ago before the irrigation lake was built at Commonwealth the native couch fairways all nearly died and have since be replaced by legend couch fairways to prevent this happening again. As David says the other option for the fairways was Santa Anna which I believe is used at Kingston Heath but I guess RM felt it plays too fast and would make the course play too short so Legend was chosen instead.

This is all from what I have been told and heard from various sources and not fact so don't quote me on it, but I am pretty confident it all makes sense!!!!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 10:27:36 AM by Thomas Kelly »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2011, 10:15:59 AM »
It was an entertaining first day.  A few reactions:

1.  The approaches look goofy
2.  I like the fast greens
3.  I do not recall seeing so many fliers in watching one round of a tournament.  I love the challenge that those lies in the rough present particularly when combined with the firmness and speed of the greens.
4.  Players were forced to make a series of interesting decisions
5.  There were more drivers off the tee than I anticipated.  I am not sure additional yardage is needed on the course - even for a stroke play event.
6.  Wide range of scores in foursomes - from 7 under to 3 over.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2011, 12:17:37 PM »
Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole.


Warwick

Phil played the same shot the day before in practise to a similar pin position, except Jim holed the putt on the practise day.

I think Phil meant it to happen.

James B

James
I watched all the groups play through the 4th (6W) from behind the green. I have no doubt that Phil meant to do what he did. Unfortunately he left Furyk with a downhill putt that never looked like going in. Scary quick from behind the hole - and with no wind!!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2011, 12:39:42 PM »
It is undeniable that the course looks great, but really not sure about all these different types of grasses -especially visually with the approaches shining out from a distance contrasting against the greens...it just doesn't feel natural.

I had a similar reaction.  To be clear, the course looks great.  But in past pictures and coverage of RM, the brownish grass seemed to blend much better with the surroundings and bunkers than the multi-colored and greener grass that's there now.  Again, this is just an observation about aethetics, not playability.

Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2011, 12:55:19 PM »
Thanks for the thread.  Although most of the below information was coveyed above the pictures, I am passing along the hole play list (since I had already done it for myself)
Hole 1 - 3 West, Hole 2 - 4 West, Hole 3 - 5 West, Hole 4 - 6 West, Hole 5 - 7 West, Hole 6 - 10 West, Hole 7 - 11 West, Hole 8 - 12 West, Hole 9 - 17 West, Hole 10 - 18 West, Hole 11 - 1 East, Hole 12 - 2 East, Hole 13 - 3 East, Hole 14 - 16 East, Hole 15 - 17 East, Hole 16 - 18 East, Hole 17 - 1 West, and Hole 18 - 2 West.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2011, 01:02:51 PM »
I had an absolute blast watching the Presidents Cup last night.  From what I could discern from the coverage, it looked to be a master class in bunkering/bunker placement.  Just fantastic stuff.

I would agree the dark greens did look a bit odd in contrast with the rest of the place.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2011, 02:08:54 PM »
How cool was KJ's back-to-the-hole-from-15-feet putt? Feherty says, it doesn't break that much moments before KJ hits a beauty that curls down, perfectly on line, stopping 6 inches short of the hole...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2011, 02:46:38 PM »
Tweet of the Day:

@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2011, 03:07:58 PM »




That would be a gum tree then?



Tom

not sure if you were serious, but that is a gum tree high in the background.  (Yes, I know, Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree-E....)

The kookaburra is sitting on a piece of tea-tree. 

Tea-tree is a wonderful bush which has had a deleterious effect on many sandbelt courses if unmanaged.  Melbourne's gorse!
I believe tea-tree has three natural enemies - Graeme Grant (particularly the Kingston Heath species), Michael Clayton and Stihl chainsaws.  Tea-tree needs a master.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2011, 08:08:56 PM »
Tea tree is the US version of mulberry bush/tree. A noxious species unless just outside the fence of a golf course!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2011, 09:33:12 PM »
Tweet of the Day:

@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee

Dan must never have had to pay for breakfast in New York.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Presidents Cup at RM
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2011, 09:54:16 PM »




That would be a gum tree then?



Tom

not sure if you were serious, but that is a gum tree high in the background.  (Yes, I know, Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree-E....)

The kookaburra is sitting on a piece of tea-tree.  

Tea-tree is a wonderful bush which has had a deleterious effect on many sandbelt courses if unmanaged.  Melbourne's gorse!
I believe tea-tree has three natural enemies - Graeme Grant (particularly the Kingston Heath species), Michael Clayton and Stihl chainsaws.  Tea-tree needs a master.

James B

I think we call a gum tree a eucalyptus.

I am loving watching Royal Melbourne in these conditions.   Can anyone post a marked up aerial of the composite routing?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:35:23 PM by Bill_McBride »