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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #625 on: March 20, 2012, 07:45:26 PM »
Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important.

I know some national members who get 50+ rounds per year in at their "away" club (I'm not talking about old fat hacks like me)...granted not your average national member, but they do exist.  The value/quality proposition at some of these clubs for the truly obsessed is simply phenomenal....get it while the getting's good boys.  It wasn't that long ago when I would have been thrilled to have one-off access to some of the best courses in the world.  Now you can join for a f*$%ing song!  Step up!

« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:48:17 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Joe Stansell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #626 on: March 20, 2012, 07:50:06 PM »
I know some national members who get 50+ rounds per year in at their "away" club.....

How does marriage and something like this work?  ???

I see the cost of these national clubs and I so desperately want to join. But knowing how many rounds I'd be able to play, I simply can't make it pencil on any rational basis. And my family can't afford for me to be irrational about this sort of thing.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #627 on: March 20, 2012, 08:00:54 PM »
Joe,

Add in travel, food and lodging costs and it gets worse. And those costs get worse the more you go as your per round    cost goes down.  

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #628 on: March 20, 2012, 08:16:34 PM »
CJ, can you bring back the Cessna and run a daily shuttle back and forth? Then maybe you got something.

There might be some value for a prospective member, but from a Ballyneal member perspective, I'm not seeing a significant benefit. I think JaKa said the same thing from his perspective the last time this was brought up.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #629 on: March 20, 2012, 08:18:45 PM »
CJ, can you bring back the Cessna and run a daily shuttle back and forth? Then maybe you got something.

There might be some value for a prospective member, but from a Ballyneal member perspective, I'm not seeing a significant benefit. I think JaKa said the same thing from his perspective the last time this was brought up.

What is teh drive time between locations?

Jim Colton

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #630 on: March 20, 2012, 08:21:41 PM »
3 1/2 hours?

Chris, talk to the proprietor of your other club and I bet the interest would go through the roof!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #631 on: March 20, 2012, 08:23:34 PM »
3 1/2 hours?

Chris, talk to the proprietor of your other club and I bet the interest would go through the roof!

No Cessna necessary. Just comfortable transport manned by club staff.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #632 on: March 20, 2012, 08:53:07 PM »

We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies.


Chris,

On a local level here, in Philadelphia, I've never quite figured out how the notion of operational efficientcies actually plays out in real life. Can you share your thoughts, as an operator, where these savings come from?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #633 on: March 20, 2012, 09:06:10 PM »
Jim,

I'm guessing in administrative costs.

1 accountant, 1 lawyer, 1 COO, 1 vendor list, 1 purchaser,  etc.

As for the idea of these two joining, it sounds terrific on paper.  I don't know how feasible it would be in reality, but the prospect of playing 4 days in the Sand sounds awesome.  It would be relatively easy to get in 6-7 rounds over 4 days including drive time.

Matthew Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #634 on: March 20, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »
I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting.  If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains.  I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer.  Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland.  I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.

Most of the guys that belong to Ballyneal really value the way that the course plays and what a terrific job Dave Hensley does to deliver an incredibly firm and fast surface.  People have many attractive places to play good golf in Denver and in the resort areas west of Denver.  However, for those who truly love playing links golf, and hitting links golf shots, there are only a handful of places in America to play that offer the kind of surface on offer at Ballyneal.  There are even fewer places where you can play true links golf in terrific weather as opposed to bundled up in rain gear!    

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #635 on: March 20, 2012, 09:41:10 PM »
Thanks guys, this thread has really improved over the last 2-3 pages of posts.

I was trying to consider, in practical terms, what traveling 3 hours to my golf course/home club would really be like for me, and for friends of mine that are passionate about golf, and have families, etc

Traveling from a big city such as Denver, I imagine would also have its issues, if you are on the wrong side of town travel time would be even more, and why would I want to join Ballyneal, when I can play at CGC, a relly good quality club (?), and then my family all love(and so do I) the lure of the mountains and all the leisure and activity that they offer. (my one trip to BN we got a little lost on the way)

In the end, I think the distractions of our 'normal lives' may reduce the frequency, and then they may also be at the expense of other trips to other annual trips and the like, and in the long run, I think the 3 hour hike would be too far for even the general GCA enthusaists - of course, there will be the 20-50 who for them, it is bliss, but there is a risk that these guys are already part of the 75 existing(?)

What I really do think would be a winner, - and it certainly sounds like it meets Chris' mantra for DR, and also syncs in with Greg's suggestion, and am sure it has been discussed here before - is if all these Denverites are experience and adventure seekers, fun loving outdoor orientated leisure customers, then that will be the model that a successful BN will embrace, a 2-4 day golf experience, 1, 2 or 3 times per year. They are almost a National type member, but without the upfront joining fee, where they go and blow a bunch of money with their golfing buddies, and drive home with big cheesy grins on their faces. This was my 4 day experience with friends in 2010, our experience at BN (with Jim and th Yucca crew) and then at SH - not only rivaled, but probably the bettered the following 4 days at Bandon, and I think we generally thought we had far greater bang for our buck in Colorado and Nebraska than we did in Oregon. Unfortunately, we were unable to squeeze in visits to Dismal or TPC, but this region has the potential to rival the other destination places, not as members only, but as the experience of welcoming return guests once or twice a year, to be made to feel at home. (Regular visitors to Barnbougle Dunes in Tassie, find this experience, greeted and welcomed back every time, as if you were a member. )
The only negative, was the driving, while tired and sunburnt (&hungover), long distances, this could easily be addressed with small coach/bus transfer - think UK golf tour little trucks with a couple of tables for cards, some eskies(coolers), TV, etc

Not enough locals to make survival from private local members only, but would be tons of experience seeking golfers from that same market that could justify blowing $2,000 on a long 4 day weekend, but not $10k upfront and $5k annuals, plus spending money.

Now that really is my two cents, as I have only been there once.
@theflatsticker

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #636 on: March 20, 2012, 09:45:29 PM »
Jeff and Jim,
In addition to Kalen's comments, I would think the one thing that is most elusive and always in short supply for both these clubs is leads, i.e. golfers that are potential customers.
By linking the two, you guarantee to pick up everyone that plays at the other, effectively probably adding a third extra revenue without any outlay. Resourced and managed from one central system/person.
@theflatsticker

Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #637 on: March 20, 2012, 09:45:53 PM »
I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting.  If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains.  I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer.  Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland.  I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.

Tommy,
Funny, we live in the mountains, between Silverthorne and Steamboat, I make the drive to The Prairie Club about twice a month.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #638 on: March 20, 2012, 10:16:32 PM »
Greg - I agree with you here too.  That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.

Sven, you aren't far off.  Luckily, we have very little debt.

All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal?  If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?

Chris,
It's hard for me to see why merging would help. They're hours apart.
Are you assuming more members would be attracted to  both? (thus upping the total # of dues payers)
or are you assuming members would pay more for access to both.
Hard to see many efficiencies-hard to share a super,pro,or manager hours apart, or even equipment for that matter.
certainly staff could be rotated for events, but it would seem that both places would need to be pretty booked during peak season to do well
.Can you help me to understand?

Jeff, Jim, Kalen, Brett, off the top of my head, efficiencies would be in non daily equipment (aerators, etc), procurement, and back office.  Heck, you could have one Executive Chef planning menus for both.  Accounting, IT, and reservations could probably be rolled up in one place.  Both clubs have to have full staffs stand alone.  Believe me, these days, $300,000 matters.

The distance between the club isn't a problem from and Ops standpoint.  We are used to long distances out this way.  Many people like to play a mix of PC, Sand Hills, Dismal, Awarii, Wild Horse, and Ballyneal anyway.

wrt existing members, I agree they would all probably favor their original club.  Having another cool place is icing on the cake and events could be held to build bridges.  With DR, BN might even remain walking only.  Colton could play Ballyneal and Kavanaugh could play at Dismal if that is what they wanted.  THe organization just wants people to have fun.

wrt new members, the cost to join wouldn't have to be any higher than for each individually.  Same with dues as BN's are still above what I would charge.  You would have to have more members overall and the individual "vibe" would be very important.

There are alot of members and guests who play both places and the question would be would more people be interested in both?  If only 20% extended a visit by a day, that matters too.

I don't have all the answers, but agree with Greg it would be interesting to visit and discuss.  Sometimes consolidation and critical mass is a good thing.






John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #639 on: March 20, 2012, 10:18:38 PM »
Matt,

The golf course is so great.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:23:22 PM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #640 on: March 20, 2012, 10:38:47 PM »
I somehow do not see anyone going for that in either membership. They are different places.

Please explain how they are different places. I am all for whatever Chris thinks is best for the club. If I were a member at Ballyneal I would be staying and playing with my seven guests on an upcoming trip as opposed to Bayside as I currently have planned. I estimate that in green fees and lodging I would provide Ballyneal with around $5,000 per year in revenue. Sound like a win/win.

Funny thing is, even if I never play Ballyneal again, I will gladly host any past, current or future member of Ballyneal at any time. I can assure you that no individual membership has shown me the kindness that the original members of Ballyneal have in the past. I will forever be in their debt.


Matthew Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #641 on: March 20, 2012, 10:51:02 PM »
Matt,

The golf course is so great.

John:

I agree. I just think how the course plays due to the way the fescue is maintained is all too often overlooked.

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #642 on: March 20, 2012, 11:05:51 PM »
TK - nice post.
@theflatsticker

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #643 on: March 20, 2012, 11:14:53 PM »

I can assure you that no individual membership has shown me the kindness that the original members of Ballyneal have in the past. I will forever be in their debt.


[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:25:28 PM by Scott Szabo »
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jim Nugent

Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #644 on: March 21, 2012, 12:36:41 AM »

wrt new members, the cost to join wouldn't have to be any higher than for each individually.  Same with dues as BN's are still above what I would charge.  You would have to have more members overall and the individual "vibe" would be very important.


Do you mean members would pay, say, BN's fees or DR's fees, but not both?  i.e. if BN charges 10k and DR charges 5k (I'm making these up for the example), would the combined club charge 15k? 

Harris Nepon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #645 on: March 21, 2012, 08:18:03 AM »
 I'm finding this thread very interesting as it progresses. Thanks for the great info from all involved.

Ballyneal was one of my favorite PLACES I have ever visited.  I absolutely loved the golf course and wish I could play it every day. I probably played the course in the worse conditions possible, 3 days of rain and cold in the middle of July, but I still loved it. I can only imagine how much fun it is in the intended conditions.

That being said, what I truly loved about the place was the atmosphere. Hanging out in the bar between rounds and after, the bocce ball area, the lodging, the way you were treated by everyone, the laid back atmosphere, no dress code, total comfort. At no point you walked around on egg shells hoping not to offend anyone. ALL members were extremely friendly. None of this is new to anyone here, but it's what makes this place so amazing.

I've never visited Dismal, but I get the impression it is very close if not the same there.

I would love to see BN become a semi-private or public resort for my own selfish purposes. I make a decent living running my own business, but joining one of these clubs even at the reduced price is out of the question for me. Having the option to visit every couple of years would be ideal.
Unfortunately for me, I think the public/semi-private model would take away from all that I loved about Ballyneal. If it was packed full of people or filled with a bunch of random people it might feel like any other resort. How could the staff get to know everyone? How could relationships be formed? The public model would change it for the worse, IMHO.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #646 on: March 21, 2012, 08:35:41 AM »
It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  8).  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Briggs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #647 on: March 21, 2012, 09:08:34 AM »
Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

Jud,

Couldn't agree more with that.  Both my wife and 15 year old son play and a national membership has definately been a win, win, win.  Helps that we can hop in the car and be there in a little over two hours, but a big win none the less.  I've just needed to now accept that I'm the third best golfer in my house...

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #648 on: March 21, 2012, 09:48:33 AM »
Jim - Having not seen any numbers, I would guess the initial join fee would be in the $10,000 range, one price for both.  Dues lower than BN today, probably at $3,600/year.

Jud - you are right on!  I took my son to Sand Hills beginning at age 9.  We would spend close to a week and it was a wonderful time as a dad.  Over time, Ian started by playing close to the greens, then moved to the 150 yard marker, then playd from my drive, then played the entire hole.  One of the highlights was a hole in 1 on #3 from the forward tees.  ALways took other guys but Ian was the reason.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal in foreclosure
« Reply #649 on: March 21, 2012, 09:51:14 AM »
Here's a simple idea that would add value to members of both clubs. And I think it would give each club incremental revenue as it would drive more memberships and guest play for each.

Ballyneal gives Dismal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Dismal gives Ballyneal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.

Obviously, the 200-300 number could be tweaked. And restrictions would have to be added (ex: each member could visit the other only 1x a year, Sun-Thu only, etc.).

Having quasi membership access to a 2nd amazing club would be very appealing to many.

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