[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx

Curlander states:

"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."

___________________________________________

I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.

Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.

I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.

He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.

Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.

Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.

[Sam Morrow]

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx

Curlander states:

"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."

___________________________________________

I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.

Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.

I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.

He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.

Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.

Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.

Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?

[Mike Sweeney]

Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?

Sam,

I said the same exact thing about Streamsong and have now seen enough and talked to enough people to say that it will be the #1 winter destination for GCAers.

Let's assume Doak @ Dismal is borderline Top 100 Modern, my opinion would stay the same.

[Sam Morrow]

Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?

Sam,

I said the same exact thing about Streamsong and have now seen enough and talked to enough people to say that it will be the #1 winter destination for GCAers.

Let's assume Doak @ Dismal is borderline Top 100 Modern, my opinion would stay the same.

I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?

[Mike Sweeney]

I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?

Sam,

This is Golf Club Atlas. Open to the public and open to "friends, family and raters" are two separate things. 

[Sam Morrow]

I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?

Sam,

This is Golf Club Atlas. Open to the public and open to "friends, family and raters" are two separate things. 

I guess nobody likes me.

[Jim Colton]

Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.

Mike,
 
  That's an interesting question, and one I guess I was faced with this offseason since CJ was gracious enough to extend me an invitation to join DR. In the end, I think location counts for a lot, as I can get a lot more golf in a 3-day weekend at BN than DR or any other course in that region. I think the facilities are perfect. And I think the golf course is one of Tom's best if not his best. And it's there ready to play versus in progress. All of those factors made it a no-brainer in my mind. Plus staring at aerials and spending time out in the surrounding land, I think there is opportunity for at least two more courses out there. I'd love to get to the point where we could give Tommy Deez the blank canvas and say have at it (again).

  I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.

Mike,
 
  That's an interesting question, and one I guess I was faced with this offseason since CJ was gracious enough to extend me an invitation to join DR. In the end, I think location counts for a lot, as I can get a lot more golf in a 3-day weekend at BN than DR or any other course in that region. I think the facilities are perfect. And I think the golf course is one of Tom's best if not his best. And it's there ready to play versus in progress. All of those factors made it a no-brainer in my mind. Plus staring at aerials and spending time out in the surrounding land, I think there is opportunity for at least two more courses out there. I'd love to get to the point where we could give Tommy Deez the blank canvas and say have at it (again).

  I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.

Well said. Did you consider Colorado Golf Club?  I've never been there but it would seem the best place to go to play lots of golf. If Ballyneal has a competitor it must be her.

[Jim Colton]

CGC has a national membership. I didn't consider it.

[John Kavanaugh]

CGC has a national membership. I didn't consider it.

Yes and there is always next year.

[Mike Sweeney]

  I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.

Jim,

I am a member of Enniscrone GC which has gone through its own financial issues. When I got a newsletter over the winter describing how they had to let go a long time employee, I could feel the pain in the GM who wrote the newsletter.

It appears that you are trying to be analytical about the process as a now probably former member. I have never been to Ballyneal and have no plans to visit. I am a student of golf club history and have read and own many golf club histories in the time wasting time spent here and other places on this topic.  Curlader called the foreclosure a "non event". I have never seen that term used in reference to any member in any club history. Why would a new member give him $10,000 when to him foreclosing on his current members was a "non event"?

I am a big boy and have gotten wiped out on a variety of investments. The same sort of thing just happened at Chechessee Creek, and I had a friend get wiped out on his loan/equity contributed about his initiation. The main differences in my mind are:

1. There was a real estate play at CCC from day one.
2. The old owner failed and a new owner came in from the membership roster, not a brother-in-law.
3. The membership at CCC was not nearly as financially and emotionally involved in the club. At Ballyneal, it is my understanding that the members contributed the majority of the money.

There are lots of great courses these days, very few great modern clubs, IMO. I have never met Chris Johnston and have had only have one direct exchange with him. Based on what I read and hear from others, I would pick him all day long over Curlander to run, grow, establish and curate a great club.

[Tom_Doak]

http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx

Curlander states:

"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."

___________________________________________

I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.

Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.

I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.

He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.

Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.

Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.

Mike:

Thanks for the vote of confidence in our work.  However, there are two things to remember:

1.  Dismal River does not yet have a golf course as good as Ballyneal.  I'm hopeful that it will, soon, but I also know that Ballyneal is one of my very best courses and there is never a guarantee that any course turns out that good.  Not all "Doak courses" are the same, and breaking into my top 3 or top 5 is not that easy, even for me. 

2.  "Other than location" is a nice dodge, but location is pretty important to the future success of Ballyneal.  It's exactly half as far from Denver [and the Denver airport] as Sand Hills or Dismal River, and if you haven't got your own jet, the difference between a three-hour drive and a six-hour drive is huge -- it's the difference between playing golf on your travel day or not, or the difference between a comfortable weekend trip and a three-day trip to play the same amount of golf.

For the latter reason, I've really never felt that the two projects compete with each other as much as people here think.  Dismal River's natural market is Nebraska, and points east, and I think it's inevitable that eventually it will be a big part of a Nebraska golf trail that lures outsiders and supplements the members' dues.  Ballyneal's natural market is Denver, and Denver is big enough to give it a solid foundation.  But, one of the key early investors in Ballyneal was a Denver guy who left on very bad terms, with the result that Ballyneal was never going to sell many memberships there as long as the original management was in charge.  It remains to be seen whether John Curlander can convince people in Denver that he does represent new leadership, and the original members will have a voice in that by their choice of whether to stay or leave.

2. 

[Jim Colton]

Mike,

You might be right. I'm not ready to endorse John Curlander as the only thing I really know about him is he is Rupert's brother-in-law. But I am willing to put a few bucks in to find out and enjoy a great golf course in the mean time. No matter what you want to say about Rupert's management or leadership, Ballyneal doesn't exist without his vision so I'll always give him credit for that. And despite all that, in my opinion, Ballyneal had a great membership; just not enough of them in the end. The course is obviously very unique and is self-selecting in the type of golfers it attracts. These are generally guys I'm predisposed to enjoy being around.  It saddens me that some of existing members won't be back.

But the way I look at it, it's now minimal investment to bring a few friends into the fold who might otherwise only come once a year. So if it means I get to play more golf with close friends than before, the utility of that membership will only increase.

Jim

[Brett_Morrissy]

Tom,
For me, finally someone has articulated the practical differences between Ballyneal and the courses of Nebraska AND their demographic pools of potential members and guests...i havent noticed it in the last 22 pages.
The length of the drive into Nebraskan (?) sand hills from Denver, for us was a surprisingly long trip...but wow, what a trip with incredible golf, I hope that they all succeed, and that every golfer with a passion for fine, fine golf and a great golf experience, gets to see and play these in their lifetime.
BM

[Chris Johnston]

All

Have to disagree - I don't believe location is an issue at all.  Both Ballyneal and Dismal require an effort to get there, and the travel time is pretty much equal if flying in to North Platte.  People will join where they feel they fit.  Most members will be national, just like our neighbor Sand Hills.  Dismal is bigger than Ballyneal - simply, we have more beds.  For Ballyneal to expand from where thay are, it will require a substantial investment.  We have alot of people who enjoy stopping by Ballyneal as part of a trip, and we would love to work with them.  

John Curlander has gone, for some, from "villan" last week, to some doubting members now seem to be willing to give Ballyneal another shot.  That is wonderful!  I don't know John personally but know he did a good thing and it couldn't have been easy.  That is a good thing for a great place.  I don't know enough about the situation but John and his team have my full support as I know the difficulty of the task they face.  I have said many times that we support Ballyneal and that has always been the case.  The business isn't easy these days, and Ballyneal should have every chance to reach its potential.  If we can help them, we will.  John needs support.  He has mine.

I know alot of people think we are, or should be, competitors.  That is incredibly short sighted.  Both places are different and very good, both have good people, and both are fun.  The fact remains, we don't compete with each other...we compete with everything else.

Jim Colton is an advocate for Ballyneal, always has been.  She will need more people like Jim to succeed.

Let's all support John's efforts.  It is good for Ballyneal and good for the game.  

[John Penny]

Chris/All,

For Ballyneal, I see one major positive vs the other great Sand Hill courses: Denver.  As someone that is familiar with both the area (from Eastern CO) and region (live in Denver), I'd equate the Denver to Holyoke drive to Denver to Vail on a snow weekend.  Including traffic, drive times are very comparable and the drive to Holyoke is much less stressful.  Thus, I don't think the drive time should be a large limiting factor for the Denver market.

Personally, I feel Ballyneal focused too much on a National membership and not enough on the relative "closeness" of a major metropolitan area.  I hear very little talk about Ballyneal at my Denver area club, and most have no issues with the 2-3 hr drive to Vail in the Winter.  I realize there are other variables in play, mostly mountain houses/condos, but I'm not certain a strong Denver membership would detract from the Ballyneal experience.  I can't imagine Ballyneal being overly busy with 2X+ the # of members, all while being in a better place financially.  Perhaps the new fee structure will make that more feasable.   

Just my unsolicited $0.02

John

[Jud_T]

Given the new pricing structure, if I lived in Denver this would be a no-brainer.  I'm not familiar with the Denver area golf scene, but if they can't get a bunch of new Denver members with this structure I'd be shocked. 

[Chris Johnston]

John - I agree with you 100% wrt Denver.  Only issue is there are some really good newer clubs closer to Denver -  CGC, CP & CPCC, Ravenna, etc in additional to the great old stalwarts.  Also, from what I know, Denver folks generally head west for recreation and alot of people are alreay members of clubs in the mountains.  That is no way to diminish Ballyneal, its just a bit of a "tweener" in a very competitive market.  I also think there was some "taint" in Denver so let's hope that can be healed over time.  I certainly think they can do it but it won't be easy.

[Jud_T]

Aren't places like CGC significantly more expensive for a local membership?

[John Kavanaugh]

Aren't places like CGC significantly more expensive for a local membership?

Does anyone really know what it costs to join anywhere these days? 

I had some of the best golfing days of my life at Ballyneal both playing golf with and having dinner with Rupert.  Will he still be at least an ambassador for the club?  It wouldn't be the same without him.

[Matt Bosela]

I hope that Mr. Curlander implements some sort of incentive system to the existing members for bringing in or sponsoring new members.  Most of the private clubs around here have such systems in effect and it seems only fair considering the fact that the members at Ballyneal who are grandfathered in paid at least 5X more to get into the club - other than having decent standing on most of the course ranking lists, I'd have to say the best marketing tool the club has is through positive word of mouth from their loyal members, who know what a great course (and club) they actually have.

I know this is just business to the new owner and perhaps I'm being naive but if it were me, I'd be doing everything possible with the existing members to ensure they are kept happy and engaged throughout the difficult process of rebuilding the membership.

I loved my very limited time spent at Ballyneal and hope to return again sooner rather than later.  It's a wonderful place and I offer my best wishes to the club and especially the members who have maintained their patience through a difficult time.

[Les Cordes]

in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..

[Mac Plumart]

I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.

I think the above comment from Mike is beyond interesting and just might be invaluable for any and all clubs currently operating.

I've tried to make it a point to study the operations of the world class golf clubs since their inception, and Pine Valley certainly is one of them.  Survinving World Wars, Depressions, mutliple recessions, and daily life in general is no small feat.  These clubs histories just might prove to be great "best practices" guidlelines.

My 2 cents for all golf clubs and their leadership.

[Brad Isaacs]

in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..

Les, I would counter that Bally is a public attempt to be private model. If you want to go there you can, just call.  The real question is , why be a member?  for the discount price? Unless you are going to go multiple times a year, which isn't very many people even in GCA, it just isn't worth it and does not deny you access. Colton would always sponsor you.
The facility is so cash strapped that for the immediate future any who can pay will be allowed to go.

The members are there because they made an emotional commitment to the place, if unwise with their money.(from the totally financial perspective)

Brad

[Matt Bosela]

in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..

Les, I would counter that Bally is a public attempt to be private model. If you want to go there you can, just call.  The real question is , why be a member?  for the discount price? Unless you are going to go multiple times a year, which isn't very many people even in GCA, it just isn't worth it and does not deny you access. Colton would always sponsor you.
The facility is so cash strapped that for the immediate future any who can pay will be allowed to go.

The members are there because they made an emotional commitment to the place, if unwise with their money.(from the totally financial perspective)

Brad

Brad,

With all due respect, I think your entire post is ill-advised and based on assumptions instead of fact.

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