[Pete Lavallee]

Pat,

You've made my day, Three green replies in one day!

From your replies it is obvious you haven't been to Ballyneal as you don't seem to grasp the situation there very well. There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between a destination club and a club with national members. By definition the national member club has a stable base of local members and simply fills out the remaining times on the tee sheet with national members who drop by a few times a year, their revenue is greatly appreciated. However you must be located near a dense population base for this model to survive. Ballyneals' model was to sell 130 memberships at $70K each; this is a destination club. I would wager there are very few members who live within 150 miles. Sand Hills is a destination club, I know you have been there. I'm sure you know that all the members there paid they same initiation and dues, irrespective of how far they live from the Sand Hills.

The objection I had to your original post was twofold. First I disagree with your notion that you can turn a destination club into a national membership club without seriously alienating the members who ponied up the big bucks. Just like you didn't want people who pay a big nut to join a private have to put up with casual play at a bargain basement price.

My biggest surprise was when you suggested unaccompanied play! Don't forget this is still a private club; there could be sex offenders and ex-felons who accept your generous suggestion. Think of the liability issues, they are no diiferent from Merion or NLGA just because this club is located in the chop hills of Co.

[Dan Byrnes]

Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...

Ok, Now you've heard it.

I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong.  Sand Hills was already up and sustained.  Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal?  Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product.  Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out.  There are some exceptions of course.

Dan

[Pete Lavallee]

  Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out.  There are some exceptions of course.

Dan

Are you saying Sebonack was a big mistake and is doomed to failure?

[John Shimp]

Pete,
One thing to think about from the perspective of a member that spent $70k is that they are "wiped out" now.  If they want to drop because Ballyneal shifts its business model and lets in low initiation feemembers to get the club restarted and out of the hands of lenders they have that right or they can just hold a grudge and continue as members.  Either way their money is gone and their club is insolvent right now.  I suspect they all know that changes are on the way with some outcomes in the spectum of the possible when in BK being more severe to them than others (eg. return to ranch etc).

[Sven Nilsen]

Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...

Ok, Now you've heard it.

I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong.  Sand Hills was already up and sustained.  Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal?  Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product.  Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out.  There are some exceptions of course.

Dan

Dan:

You're working off the assumption that Ballyneal was supposed to be the next Sand Hills.  They're different golf courses, different hospitality models and different vibes.  Ballyneal was intended to be Ballyneal.

Sven

[Dan Byrnes]

  Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out.  There are some exceptions of course.

Dan

Are you saying Sebonack was a big mistake and is doomed to failure?

Not at all.  It would be one of the exceptions best I can tell the money involved is way beyond typical  It is a place where their is extreme wealth and a large golfing population so it can survive and maybe over time prosper and switch places with a NGLA hard to know what the next generation of golfers will view as the best when the present one who have ushered the building boom and the ranking hype are gone.  Without any influence regarding money yes I would say Sebonack would go before NGLA.

Dan

[George Pazin]

I think Dan is simply saying there are a limited number of people in the world who will invest in a destination club. Sebonack is not a destination club, at least in the sense Pete means. There are an unlimited number of wealthy people on Long Island...

[Dan Byrnes]

Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...

Ok, Now you've heard it.

I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong.  Sand Hills was already up and sustained.  Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal?  Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product.  Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out.  There are some exceptions of course.

Dan

Dan:

You're working off the assumption that Ballyneal was supposed to be the next Sand Hills.  They're different golf courses, different hospitality models and different vibes.  Ballyneal was intended to be Ballyneal.

Sven

Yes I am certainly generalizing.  However the differences form what I can tell are not extreme.  Is a established member of Sand Hills going to leave for Ballyneal because the rooms are nicer and give up the additional prestige and friendships they have built?  Maybe 1 or 2.  More likely there are those with the economics to do both with little concern.  In the end the two courses share many more simalarities than differences.  That pretty much explains why one is flourishing and another is not as there aren't presently enough customers at Ballyneals cost to meet the supply.  Perhaps a different model
will work.

I may be mistaken but when Sea Island got in trouble the members of Ocean Forest where ready to buy it to preserve what they have, maybe Ballyneals will do the same or someone passionate about the place will write a check and keep it afloat till things improve or just keep
It going out of love for the place.  Hopefully a happy ending.

Dan

[Steve Lapper]

I think Dan is simply saying there are a limited number of people in the world who will invest in a destination club. Sebonack is not a destination club, at least in the sense Pete means. There are an unlimited number of wealthy people on Long Island...

George,

  Sebonack is wholly different animal. The wealthy of NYC (not L.I.) are the demographic driving the membership of this club.

 It is both stand-alone worthy (especially for those who will not likely ever be admitted to NGLA or Shinny) as well as a great deal for those who wish to not buy a Hamptons estate, but instead periodically visit the area and play at a terrific venue. As for the business model, it's backer has very deep pockets and the intelligence to promote long-term sustainability over short term gain.

[Don_Mahaffey]

The thing that separates clubs/courses like Ballyneal from your run of the mill metropolitan based club is the quality of the golf course itself. So many here are trying to apply some sort of business logic or model to explain what happened or what will happen. Fact is, its not logic that compels people to want to play great golf courses anymore then its logic that makes people want to drink fine wine or eat prime instead of choice. What many forget though, is its all about the golf, the golf course. You can get a great meal in almost any town or stay in a nice place. Don't break the bank building facilities when its all about the golf. Pay as you go and build as you go.

I believe we will always have dreamers who want to do something special. My only advice to them is stay focused on the dream and avoid the business experts who tell you what people want. Its not logical to build a great golf course out in the middle of nowhere and it isn't business logic that makes people want to go there and play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Don - So what do you say to the people if they have lost their or going to lose a significant amount of their $70,000... sorry your dream was a nightmare.

What you must do is apply buisness logic because dream golf will not work, remember the title of the thread. Buisness logic ideas are required to find a way to get more people to this resort, it will probably need daily fees or weekend outings though that might not be popular with some but getting the plan to work as originally intended looks a gonner to me.

There seems no doubt that is a wonderful course, its just in the wrong place.

[Mike Benham]

My only advice to them is stay focused on the dream and avoid the business experts who tell you what people want.

Even if that dream has failed once already?

Reminds me of the financial comedy of a boat owner who names his boat "Never Again II"

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike, do you own golf clubs? if so, why?

[Jim Colton]

I think it's a misnomer to think that because the first iteration of BN went in foreclosure that the second iteration of BN is doomed for failure even if it's the same basic business model. As somebody who lost a good chunk of money on this (not 70k), I really don't mind losing that money if out of the ashes is a well-run, healthy club that I can play at a reasonable cost for years to come. The money will be a distant memory if the club turns out okay. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

If for every 50 guys that think like Adrian, there is one who doesn't, then I think Ballyneal will be just fine.

[Rob Rigg]

I don't think Ballyneal is in the wrong place - just like Bandon Dunes is not in the wrong place.

The challenge is the business model - which obviously could not survive in its previous iteration.

There is a model that can work for Ballyneal - but some outside play, lower initiation fees and annual dues, etc. will be required.

I am with Don on keeping the dream and vision alive and focusing on that - not necessarily on what the "business world" is telling you.

People thought Mike Keiser was crazy and he did it, I assume people thought Dick Youngscap was crazy as well for building Sand Hills, and other founders were crazy for building their clubs or bringing them back from a scary place like Chris Johnston did at Dismal - some succeeded and some didn't - some will rise from the ashes with a wiser and more realistic model and thrive while others will cease to exist, as we have seen already. But the key for success is a vision and a membership, or group of golfers, that can hold hands and buy into it.

I don't know anyone - and this is just personal experience - who has left Ballyneal and thought they had a ho hum experience. The resounding reaction is "I wish I could tee it at Ballyneal whenever I can get a hall pass. That place is amazing." It doesn't take THAT many guys who have been moved by the place to step up given an opportunity if the club becomes more affordable and united behind a future vision that is viable economically and operationally.

If Jim Colton's ability to walk 155 holes in one day to raise over $110k for Ben Cox and his family is any indication of the passion that the course and club stirs in its membership then I am optimistic and hopeful that Ballyneal will get thru this and be stronger for it.

[Chris Johnston]

I agree with Jim here, 100%.  He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy.  Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.

Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.

No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid.  I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.  

Many people look for blame.  If that is you, blame the economy.  Its ravaging the entire industry.

The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so.  At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business.  It works but it ain't easy.  We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends.  It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve.  These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs.  A different animal entirely.

I would caution against members buying the club.  There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2.  Ownership is a million details.  If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved.  Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.  

Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept.  Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.  

Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club.  We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help.  That's what neighbors do.  

[Sean_A]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday?  This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.

Ciao

Lighten up, my friend. Dan just posted that jokingly because I got a chuckle from Bogey's colorful language. Sometimes you have to take a look at who is posting something - I think Dan and I have earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt.

-----

Just out of curiosity, who came up with the "$1K for national membership" number? That seems ridiculously low for a course of Ballyneal's quality.

Or are there other highly regarded courses with similar offerings? I know Prairie Dunes is (or perhaps was) a steal at its national membership rate, but even that was a good bit higher than $1K.

George

I am light enough not to tell people to STFU.  You must remember, I haven't met you, Dan or Bogey.  All I have to go on is what is posted.  You are probably right that at least one instance was a joke, but I think the humour was lost in cyberspace.

Ciao 

[Lou_Duran]

Let's cut to the chase.  Can some one here who knows tell me what is owed on the property and what can it be purchased for?

Don, is your involvement with Dismal River coloring your perspective?  You didn't use to be a romantic when it came to golf.  The universe of people who are willing to pay for our version of "quality" golf is rather limited and, I suspect, not all that financially endowed.  

[Sven Nilsen]

I agree with Jim here, 100%.  He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy.  Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.

Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.

No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid.  I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.  

Many people look for blame.  If that is you, blame the economy.  Its ravaging the entire industry.

The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so.  At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business.  It works but it ain't easy.  We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends.  It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve.  These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs.  A different animal entirely.

I would caution against members buying the club.  There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2.  Ownership is a million details.  If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved.  Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.  

Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept.  Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.  

Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club.  We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help.  That's what neighbors do.  

No offense Chris, but for once can we have a conversation on this board that doesn't turn into a blaring neon advertisement for Dismal River.

[Mike_Young]

I am amazed that this thread is 218 post.  You guys need to take a deep breath and sit back.  Somebody will work this out and I would bet they would welcome the former members in a second. 
I would say that there are some courses out there right now where if they were given to you, you could not bring in the revenue to keep it open because of the way they are set up but BN should work.  I would guess that if BN could bring in $100,000 per month in revenues somebody can make it work. 
So you guys go back to watching reruns of Napoleon Dynamite.   

[Chris Johnston]

I agree with Jim here, 100%.  He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy.  Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.

Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.

No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid.  I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.  

Many people look for blame.  If that is you, blame the economy.  Its ravaging the entire industry.

The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so.  At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business.  It works but it ain't easy.  We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends.  It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve.  These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs.  A different animal entirely.

I would caution against members buying the club.  There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2.  Ownership is a million details.  If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved.  Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.  

Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept.  Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.  

Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club.  We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help.  That's what neighbors do.  

No offense Chris, but for once can we have a conversation on this board that doesn't turn into a blaring neon advertisement for Dismal River.

Sorry, Sven.  My post was in support of Ballyneal and had little to do with Dismal.  If you don't like my posts, I recommend you choose not to read them...just pass them over.  If you don't like Dismal, feel free not to come out.  I share information when I think I can contribute to a topic.  

Mike Young - I agree with you too.

No offense, but I'll post what I like. 

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

I for one appreciate the enthusiasm and spirit for the game that Chris has brought to the forum and he's certainly put his actions behind his words in a very turbulent environment.  I see it exactly like he does...a healthy "sand hills" region is best for the most amount of people when everyone wins... and with that I wish all the success in the world for every club in the extended area.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm with Mike Young on this one. It's a bidness issue. Will get sorted out. Let's get back to something else we know less about, which doesn't narrow the field, but you get my drift.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You've made my day, Three green replies in one day!

From your replies it is obvious you haven't been to Ballyneal as you don't seem to grasp the situation there very well.

Pete,

I stated that I'd never been to BN, however, you might be surprised about how much I know about the situation.

There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between a destination club and a club with national members.
I think you've identified the problem, your "mind"

By definition the national member club has a stable base of local members and simply fills out the remaining times on the tee sheet with national
members who drop by a few times a year, their revenue is greatly appreciated.

How would you categorize Pine Valley ?
Hidden Creek?
Sand Hills ?
Seminole ?
ANGC ?

However you must be located near a dense population base for this model to survive.

Denver ?
Augusta ?
Atlantic City ?
Palm Beach ?  

 Ballyneals' model was to sell 130 memberships at $70K each; this is a destination club.
 I would wager there are very few members who live within 150 miles.

Extend it out another few miles to 175 so that you include the greater Denver area and I'll take that wager.  [/b][/size]

Sand Hills is a destination club, I know you have been there. I'm sure you know that all the members there paid they same initiation and dues, irrespective of how far they live from the Sand Hills.

That's because EVERYONE  lives far away.
Denver isn't that far from BN, probably equivalent to NY and Philly when PV started.
Same for ANGC, very few locals, lots of NY'ers.
SH and BN don't have a significant local membership and neither did PV initially, but BN can draw "locals" from Denver.


The objection I had to your original post was twofold. First I disagree with your notion that you can turn a destination club into a national
membership club without seriously alienating the members who ponied up the big bucks.

On what basis or experiences do you draw from when making that statement ?
If my club offered a national membership to people living 1,500 miles away, I couldn't care less, and my club isn't in financial distress.
You should also know that many of Trump's courses have members who paid differing initiation fees and I haven't noticed any discord between the members.   Are you under the impression that members only play with those members who paid the same initiation fee ?

Just like you didn't want people who pay a big nut to join a private have to put up with casual play at a bargain basement price.
That you don't understand the distinction is mind boggling, providing strong support for my recommendation that you be prohibited from posting words other than "yes" , "no" and "maybe"

My biggest surprise was when you suggested unaccompanied play!

ONLY when sponsored by a member

Don't forget this is still a private club; there could be sex offenders and ex-felons who accept your generous suggestion.
If you're angling for an invitation, forget it.
I have, however, sponsored many of my degenerate friends  

Think of the liability issues, they are no diiferent from Merion or NLGA just because this club is located in the chop hills of Co.
Obviously, you're unfamiliar with the vetting process.
When you have a membership screening process you have the ability to eliminate undesirables such as yourself, but when you provide unfetteres access to total strangers, that's how you let the riff raff and those walking and riding "liabilities" on your property.

Before Ran takes action, please confine all of your future answers and comments to the words, "yes", "no" and "maybe"

Thanks

[Don_Mahaffey]

Let's cut to the chase.  Can some one here who knows tell me what is owed on the property and what can it be purchased for?

Don, is your involvement with Dismal River coloring your perspective?  You didn't use to be a romantic when it came to golf.  The universe of people who are willing to pay for our version of "quality" golf is rather limited and, I suspect, not all that financially endowed.  

Lou, if one used the "accountant" angle in everything they did, there wouldn't be much golf played and the world could do with a lot less restaurants and other non-essential business.

If I owned a club in some remote area that was perfect for golf like the sand hills, I don't need a universe of people; I just need a couple hundred who want to be a part of something very cool. Playing golf has never really made any business sense has it?

I've always loved the game, so in that way maybe I have romantic ideas, but I'm very much a pragmatist about how golf courses should be operated, no matter where they are located.

Working at Dismal River has given me the opportunity to see some of the greatest golfing land in the world. Most people will never get it, and would never spend the time getting there or the money to join a club out in the middle of no where. But, if great golf stirs your soul, then sometimes you leave your accountant out of the conversation. 
 

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