[Mac Plumart]

Adrian...

Evidently, you are not a propsect for one of these clubs.  Thanks for sharing.


To all...

On this thread itself, perhaps it started off with potential but it has become a trainwreck and embarrassing.  It is my belief that Bogey wanted this thread deleted and went above and beyond in an effort to have foul language and inappropriate behavior recognized by the board administrator in an effort to achieve that goal.

Like so many threads on GCA, I will no longer be reading this one.

[Matt MacIver]

A statement with several caveats:

IF BN has been foreclosed upon;

IF said forclosure was due to liquidity concerns (i.e not enough money to pay the bills, whether from: lack of operating cash (revenues less expenses), no assets to sell, no additional equity to be infused;

IF there is no consensual restructuring agreement between debtor and creditors (i.e a pre-packaged bankruptcy, in fact or premise); then...

...the restructuring process will likely unfold over a longer period of time, not shorter.  That no banks are involved makes things no clearer whatsoever.  Both banks and private parties have the abilty to act quickly, decisively, rationally and economically...if they want to.  But herding the cats is always a big effort.  

There are several stages in a restructurng, something like: denial, blame, apathy, rescue, acceptance, agreement, resolution.  I have no idea the facts in the matter so can't opine on where the process is, but I wish all involved the best of luck to save what I've heard (mostly from gca.com) is a fantastic place.  

It's sad: if I could join two national clubs they might have been Musgrove Mill and Ballyneal; tough times, indeed.  

[Jud_T]

Adrian,

It's pretty simple.   Let's say you live in a major metro area of the U.S., love playing golf primarily on sand, prefer golf clubs to country clubs and don't feel like dropping $10-20k per annum and $50-100k down to play a Doak 4-6 course built on clay and/or kissing enough ass and waiting long enough to get invited to the one or two really great courses in town (that are also quite pricey).  Well one can play Doak 4 or 5 public golf for $50-$100 a week with the masses, make several trips to their Doak 8 or 9 national club, throw in a trip to Bandon or GB&I all the while being ahead of the game in terms of # of quality rounds/dollar.  That's pretty attractive to some of us, and I'd venture to say well beyond the confines of the obsessed on this site.  Yes most folks only care about the pool, the convenience and green grass but some of us have our priorities in a different place.  Yes folks in the UK probably scratch their heads at all this as they have a plethora of fine links and heathland courses at reasonable prices.  That's not the case on this side of the pond....

[Patrick_Mucci]

I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.

Acquisition costs tend to be lower.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.

Because the $ 1,000 doesn't mean that much to them and it gives them the ability to play a wonderful course when they choose or are in the neighborhood.  I know a fellow who's in Denver several times a year on business.  Why wouldn't he join ?

I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.

Because they can afford $ 70,000 and feel that membership at the club enhances their quality of life.

I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.

I've often been puzzled by the prohibition against carts as it seems to eliminate a segment/cadre of golfers.
My guess is that they want to establish a "culture" of golf at that particular club.

Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.

Time will tell.

One thing seems apparent, everyone raves about the golf course, so it must be something special.

Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important

The problem with great locations is that they cost an inordinate amount of money.

SEBONACK might be exhibit "A"

Now, how do you recapture your investment in the land when you expend 65 million or more just for the land ?

[Terry Lavin]

I guess this is a case of "be careful what you wish for" because all of the fawning over Ballyneal by the hobbyist crowd has now turned a bit judgmental. Let's get over ourselves. It's a club that has financial issues. It has plenty of company, unfortunately.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Well I can only applaud your enthusiasm, as a lazy Britt that just seems so much trouble for a game of golf and the concept has zero chance of success here. I tried to get 12 of us to go to Bandon and as soon as I said we had to walk it was a big NO, they went to South Carolina. I have not heard of anyone from here going to Bandon, two reasons I suspect, its too far for us and for the money we have great courses here although a lot depart here from October to May to play in Spain and Portugal. Spanish courses on the Costa del Sol are not great but the sun wins the fans over.
Another question if this was so cheap and minimal why was is $70,000 to join. Most of my courses with land cost, house and course are still less than $5,000 to make so at $50,000 you could have 100 Founder members (owners).
I dont much about the exact location but if you could get 30 twin rooms to house 60 persons and do weekends or trips those outings could pay for the upkeep 60 x $500 thats $30,000 per week if you can do it for 6 months that should be close to enough. Make sure they have carts though, you need the income!!!

[Chip Gaskins]

this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adrian,
As a fellow Brit, allbe it one who has become somewhat Americanised, I think you miss the entire point of what Ballyneal is and wasdesigned to be.
A treasure for "true" golfers to have fun...what the Americans call TRUE GOLF.....no gimmicks, no big lakes with flash bunkering, no cart paths to ruin the landscape..pure untouched golf.
Now it appears that model has run into problems and before you condemn the model as inpractical...it works at Sand Hills which is not that far away and not much less remote as a locale.
The two courses are difficult to seerate in trems of quality and as a golfing experinece...I admit Sand Hills does have carts although not that many are used.
The cart issue perhaps should and I am sure will be more leniant in the future.
The cost and value are hard to understand from someone playing in the UK...dIFFERENT WORLD MY FRIEND...Different animal altogether.
My country club here in Arkansas for instance..nice course Langford/Moreau built in 1914..so of some significance...monthly dues run $425 minimum, which in the UK would be very expensive...that is just the nature of what the game is in this country.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Michael - I dont think it did miss the entire point at all. I understand the concept, I understand the demographics, I am fairly sure there are not enough people that care enough to put in the sort of effort to give these courses enough rounds. I see a similar thing on this site wereby many on here would bust a golf club very quickly with their minor headed ideas. There is always room for an unusual one and just because Sand Hills works or worked does you yield a path forward for others, they may have taken all the creamy members already, perhaps with multiple destination clubs none of them end up working.
The way Americans run their golf courses and pricing is as crazy as the banking crisis. Golf should not cost $425 per month, but then you are going to tell me you get the tennis courts, the pool and someone in suit to tell me its a nice day.
The USA golf model will really struggle while you pay too much for froth. Ive played a fair range of American course and Ive played some really nice courses for a $50 green fee, so it can be done.

[Michael Blake]

this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either

...or the Merion thread you started when you first joined the DG. 

When I google 'Ballyneal foreclosure' this thread is right up there at #2.

[Greg Krueger]

Isn't the reason for no carts because it is fescue or is it that they made their minds up from the beginning that it would be walking only and the type of turf didn't matter?

[Ben Kodadek]

Wow Adrian.  Thanks for your input.  Are you putting together an "Occupy Augusta" program for April?

The way Americans run their golf courses and pricing is as crazy as the banking crisis. Golf should not cost $425 per month, but then you are going to tell me you get the tennis courts, the pool and someone in suit to tell me its a nice day.
The USA golf model will really struggle while you pay too much for froth. Ive played a fair range of American course and Ive played some really nice courses for a $50 green fee, so it can be done.

[Chip Gaskins]

this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either

...or the Merion thread you started when you first joined the DG.  

Or my first Dismal River thread or the Dormie Club thread that some guy lost it... or the Augusta National thread before I played where John K told me "not to smoke before sex"...  

[JESII]

Just a couple thoughts for Adrian;

I would equate You asked why pay $1,000 and live 1,000 miles away...what was Royal St. Georges initial function?

Also, didn't Augusta National have significant financial difficulties very early on?

[George Pazin]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday?  This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.

Ciao

Lighten up, my friend. Dan just posted that jokingly because I got a chuckle from Bogey's colorful language. Sometimes you have to take a look at who is posting something - I think Dan and I have earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt.

-----

Just out of curiosity, who came up with the "$1K for national membership" number? That seems ridiculously low for a course of Ballyneal's quality.

Or are there other highly regarded courses with similar offerings? I know Prairie Dunes is (or perhaps was) a steal at its national membership rate, but even that was a good bit higher than $1K.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jim - I dont know those answers, but when I read how lovely Ballyneal is and what a great day people had they report ...it was great we had the course to ourselves.... Now it depends how you read stories and how full or empty your glass is or on which side of the fence you want to sit, but READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. If its in foreclosure what are the reasons? If you can isolate the reasons and repair those problems it can work? If those problems are not going to go away its always going to be a problem.

[Jud_T]

Adrian,

as soon as the debt is written down and the club is sold to an operator at today's fair market value the majority of the problem disappears.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Adrian,
Dont get me wrong, I agree that we pay way too much for our golf over here when compared to he UK..I was a member at Copt heath when at home, a nice course as you know and pain a margin of what I pay here for a comparative course.
I still have not truly been able to figure it out why?
But somewhere like Balltneal...the UK "model' would not work..
UK clubs are generally local emebers, which could not apply to somewhere desolate like Ballyneal...but the $x...per year with unlimited play model would in my opinion work.

I would bet if Ballyneal was to offer $500  annual natinoal memberships for anybody outside a 500 mike radius, they would recieve over 1000 members within 14 days.

[Paul OConnor]

READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. If its in foreclosure what are the reasons?

Where did the money go?

Land, Golf course Architect, Golf course construction, Pro Shop, Dining Room/Kitchen/Bar, very well appointed rooms, Turtle bar, and more very well appointed rooms, Staff salaries, Management salaries, Golf course maintenance, Interest, and costs associated with planned "2nd" course.  

 I visited Ballyneal twice, loved it both times, but, I believe, that the fatal flaw in the model was this.  In order to get members to pay $70k initiation fees plus dues, the amenities had to be really, really nice.  I mean 5-star quality, and I believe they are.  Unfortunately, the costs of providing the quality outran the memberships ability or willingness to support them.      

Compare the quality of the accomodations at Ballyneal with the rather spartan rooms at Sand Hills.  Big difference.  Big $.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would bet if Ballyneal was to offer $500  annual natinoal memberships for anybody outside a 500 mike radius, they would recieve over 1000 members within 14 days.

Well if they could do that I think that should be the new model.... What I would look to do is try and get the 110 members to own the club..... Issue up to 880 shares, give every existing member 1 new share and give him the right to buy 7 new ones at a price that raises twice what the debt is, ie the new shares are at a very heavy discount to 70,000, perhaps they would be at 3,000 each...if an existing shareholder does not pony up he does not get much new pie.... Then open the club up so the national memberships pay the run cost, If this place is doing 5,000 roinds per annum you need to get this up to 15,000.

[Sven Nilsen]

Deleted.  Carry on.

[Dan Byrnes]

I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.
I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.
I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.

Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.

Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important

I think it was largely built out of the excesses of our economy at the time.  Also trying to perhaps follow in the footsteps of others like Sand Hills that achieved success and continue to flourish.  The problem is when the economy is booming there may be room for several but when it's struggling the number of potential members diminishes greatly from not just a money perspective, but time and priority.

Also the memberships that support these places are not young perhaps a 20 years golfing window on average?  The replacement of those members is not going to get easier in 10 years from now. People marry later, have kids later and atleast for now incomes are stagnating and falling.  While there will always be room for a few tough economies eliminate the weakest places or those who are late to the party unless they can offer a better product.  Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills which already has attracted the avid affluent and has the prestige, so if given a choice most National members will chose Sand Hills so they will continue to do well but others won't.

[Jud_T]

Dan,

Where do I send my check for a Sand Hills membership?

[Dan Byrnes]

Dan,

Where do I send my check for a Sand Hills membership?

You can't.  That is the difference one high quality remote course is flush and I can't join without the right connections while another one may not quite as nice struggles to survive.  The economics are  not related much to the difference in quality but more the demand for such places and the amount of potential customers.

Dan

[David Kelly]

Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...

Ok, Now you've heard it.

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