[jeffwarne]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

Pete,

Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:

1.  Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2.  Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have

 When you start to think about Sand Hills, Dismal River, Seccession etc,there is a finite supply of golfers that have the interest ,time and resources to keep these destination clubs afloat.

It's worse than that though.
The type of golfer sophisticated enough to know about and appreciate Ballyneal, no doubt is a member elsewhere in their local area, and travels as much as he can to places of great architectural interest such as the UK/Ireland, bandon etc.
I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)

Hopefully there's someone out there who's already figured this out and will produce an effective business plan that maintains the integrity of Ballyneal. (which could simply be a matter of a lower cost basis)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike Interesting you bring up the carts. I am made a personal promise to myself when I regain my health, a walking golfer I will be. However the climate is such in the summer there that carts can be needed to attract older members. It can be really hot there during a short season.  Also a cart would be great to have a second round or quick nine before dinner. Most on here agree that walking golf is the best golf. It can be great golf when you have a caddie or lazy golfer drive a cart with 4 sets of clubs on them and everybody else walks. We do a lot of 4 bagging at the Olympic Club. Oh Jeff don't you mean higher revenue rather than lower costs? I have never heard much in the way or cost issues there. It reportedly is a fairly well run operation. It has always been about needing more members and cash flow.

[Chris DeNigris]

Lower cost of membership is what I think Jeff meant.

I think the no carts practice is probably an ideal that will have to be sacrificed to maximize membership revenue.

There are a lot of 50-90% walkers that are auto-excluded in that model.

[Doug Sobieski]

I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)

Jeff:

Prior to dropping my membership, Ballyneal was where I played probably 80% of my annual rounds. I live 1100 miles away and don't belong anywhere else. I would only play a handful of rounds (maybe 6) here at home (Columbus) or elsewhere annually.

Is that close to what you were referring to, although it's not fully 100% of my rounds at Ballyneal?

Aside from that, I'm going to sit on the sidelines while everyone continues to speculate. This is heartbreaking to me.

[Keith OHalloran]

Is it possible that we are being a little irrational?  A foreclosure does not happen overnight. The likelihood is that many menbers knew about this for  along time. Wouldn't it be a good idea for members to get together and protect their original investements by purchasing the club themselves? Isnt the greatest possibility that Ballyneal survives with its current members purchasing the club, and making whatever changes are neccessary for survival?  

[David Lott]

I'm compelled to ask:  Exactly how many financially distressed golf clubs have been rescued by flippant scenarios tossed out by the members of this website?  As a syndicate we're an abject failure.  

I'm also compelled to ask:  If you held the mortgage on Ballyneal, would you be monitoring this thread with interest?

As a lender I might be interested in the thread until I read it. The lenders are going to be looking at the best way to gain reasonable value while disposing of the asset in a reasonable time. So are any buyers. They will have some interest in retaining the goodwill of present members, thus interest in the thread, but mostly it's a numbers game. There is a price at which the course can be viable with good managers. (Trump is a good manager, by the way.) Sooner or later the course will change hands at that price.

[jeffwarne]

I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)

Jeff:

Prior to dropping my membership, Ballyneal was where I played probably 80% of my annual rounds. I live 1100 miles away and don't belong anywhere else. I would only play a handful of rounds (maybe 6) here at home (Columbus) or elsewhere annually.

Is that close to what you were referring to, although it's not fully 100% of my rounds at Ballyneal?

Aside from that, I'm going to sit on the sidelines while everyone continues to speculate. This is heartbreaking to me.

Doug,
That's interesting.
Gives a new meaning to running out for a quick game.

Tiger,
I meant a lower cost basis for the property.
i.e. paying less for the property than the original owner.
For instance, if the new owner had no debt(and the old owner did), his annual expenses would automatically be lower.
But I know nothing about this situation other than I wish them well

[Duncan Cheslett]

   

Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?
   


Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

I guess the $70k guys will be a lot more upset if the place returns to being ranchland.

I know nothing about Ballyneal but plenty about insolvent businesses. Just because a business fails it doesn't mean that the assets cease to exist. The golf course at Ballyneal is simply an asset of a business that appears to be in trouble; if the business goes under the asset will be bought by someone else.

Whether that 'someone else' uses the asset for golf or for ranching cattle depends on the competion there was to buy the land, the price paid, and the motivation for buying it. Whether or not they make a success of it depends on their business model and management capabilities.

In any situation like this the original investors lose their shirts and incoming investors potentially pick up a bargain. It's the market.



What is the fire-sale value of a golf course in the middle of nowhere? Would it be any more than the value of the land it occupies?

[Terry Lavin]

Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?

[Mark Saltzman]

Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?

Hole 17 posted. I'm in a race to the finish with the Old Mac photo tour.

[Terry Lavin]

Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...

[Tim Bert]

Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?

Hole 17 posted. I'm in a race to the finish with the Old Mac photo tour.

Total elapsed time from start to finish of the thread or the day the last hole gets posted?  I might just get motivated to do 17 & 18 if it is the latter.

[Mark Saltzman]

Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...

Terry, this wasn't lost on me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?

Ie,  would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ?  Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream.  Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles.  In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.

Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.

Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?

Pete,

You can't be that obtuse, or can you ?

How you would equate a national membership, requiring the member to live 1,000 to 1,500 miles away from the club, with giving locals access at a ridiculously deep discount is beyond me, especially when the club being discussed is in a remote location to begin with.

That you don't see the distinction is grounds for Ran to limit your responses for six months, to three (3) words, "yes", "no" and "maybe"

[Terry Lavin]

Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...

Terry, this wasn't lost on me.

Didn't think so but I'm getting sleepy and obtunded!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...

For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!

Pete,

Help me out here, I'm not great at geography, having been a chemical engineering major when I entered college.

Where would one have to live to be 1,500 miles away from any course in the UK ?

Norway ?  Sweden ?  Italy ?  Spain ?

Help me out here.

[Scott Stearns]

Gents, i like walking and often carry my own bag when no caddies are available (i think its wrong not to give a guy work if a caddie has made it out to the course)  


but if i wanna play fast/have played 18 in the am/feeling lazy i like taking a cart, and iam willing to admit it.  Why not offer carts to people who have flown 5 hrs/driven 3 hours to get to a course, esp. on a 90 degree day?  nobody makes you take one....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

I don't know if you noticed, but there's a city just to the west of Holyoke, called Denver.
I'm not sure, but I think it's about 166 miles from the Denver Airport
The drive from Denver is a little more than the drive from Northern New Jersey to Hidden Creek Golf Club outside of Atlantic City.
And, from LI, Westchester and Manhattan it probably takes longer to get to Hidden Creek.

If I recall correctly, Denver is the 11th largest city in the U.S with area population of about 2,400,000
I also think that the Denver Airport, an airport large enough for TEPaul to get lost in it, had about 20,600,000 passengers travel through it just from January through May this year.

And, if I'm not mistaken, there are accomodations on the property at Ballyneal.

I doubt, if someone lived in Denver, and paid $ 70,000 for unlimited privileges, that they'd object to national members, who live 1,500 miles away, with limited privileges, paying $ 1,000 per year.  Unless of course, those who paid $ 70,000 want their dues to go up by $ 5,000 to $ 10,000 per year without those national members.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

I don't know if you're aware of it, but a good number of clubs offer National memberships to individuals living beyond a specified radius.

My observations regarding a club of that nature is that there is no acrimony between national and local members, and both classes of members understand the value each brings to the club.

Upon what experiences with local and national memberships do you base your position ?

David Lott,

I agree, you have to have a seller and a buyer and they have to agree on the price.
Without agreement, there can be no deal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.

I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.

Why ?

He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.

He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.

And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.

C'mon Pat,

You know he would do something like this on a hole like 12...  

P.S.  Yes I'm well aware my Photoshop skills are woefully inadequate! 

Kalen,

That's not bad.

And, I'm starting to like that waterfall, especially in the summer 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick,
The economic realities are, initiation dues have to come down to attract new members at most clubs. But that doesn't change the fact that many of the members who paid more will not be happy when it happens. I've experienced it first hand and its like an old money/new money class divide happens. Most everybody knows it has to happen, and they understand the business logic, but its not an easy pill to swallow for some.

[Sean_A]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday?  This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
The economic realities are, initiation dues have to come down to attract new members at most clubs. But that doesn't change the fact that many of the members who paid more will not be happy when it happens. I've experienced it first hand and its like an old money/new money class divide happens. Most everybody knows it has to happen, and they understand the business logic, but its not an easy pill to swallow for some.
Don,

You're confusing a situation whereby members have paid lower prices for the same membership class, with a situation whereby members of different membership classes are paying different amounts.

Secondly, having belonged to a number of clubs over the last 50 years, initiation and dues have vacillated with the economic environment, up and down, and not once did I ever observe any resentment on any segment of the membership over the fact that members, depending upon when they joined, paid differing amounts.

Having sat on finance committees and boards for over 40 years at a number of clubs, I think I'm amply qualified to discuss this matter from the perspective of actual experiences of the membership, new and old.

In addition, I belong to a club with a national membership program and there is no resentment toward national members from the regular members.

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Chaplin & Mark Pearce,

Where's your righteous indignation over the post below ?

Why have you been silent on the posting of such harsh language ?

Do you know how to spell "hypocrite" ?


[/quote]

Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday?  This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.
Sean,

It's not a pointless thread, it's a thread that addresses the difficulties all clubs are facing in these challenging economic times,  especially the more remote clubs

It's a

Ciao
[/quote]

[Adrian_Stiff]

I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.
I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.
I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.

Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.

Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important

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