Ballyneal in foreclosure

[Kalen Braley]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.

While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.

So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.

Thats a fair question John,

But there are a few differences.  
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds.  More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2)  I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal.  Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3)  Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.

[Pete Lavallee]

Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?

Ie,  would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ?  Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream.  Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles.  In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.

Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.

Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?

[Dean Stokes]

Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?

Ie,  would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ?  Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream.  Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles.  In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.

Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.

Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?

This should warrant some green pen.....don't let me down Pat

[Richard Choi]

From time to time people on GCA have talked about opening up a "GCA National" golf club.  Any possibilities here?   

Does anybody have some view into the financial situation at Ballyneal to figure out how feasible this is? I would think there would be a great deal of interest from everyone here. I would love to see something similar to UK club model...

I am truly sadden to find out about this news. Ballyneal really is a special place.

[Chris DeNigris]

Pete,

I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?

[JR Potts]

Pete,

I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?

No, of course it wasn't.

[Mark Johnson]

the what to do next is a hard discussion to have without understanding the terms of the loan?  (e.g. is there a balloon payment, do rates change over time, etc?)

The challenge I know that alot of clubs face is that their monthly dues don't cover operating expenses and they need an influx of new member with their initiation fees in order to breakeven/ make profit.   The result is a budget which is impossible to forecast and an incentive to dramatically reduce initiation fees for a short-term gain (and potentially alienate existing members)

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete,

I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?

No, of course it wasn't.

JR,

Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?

[Pete Lavallee]

I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...

For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!

[Terry Lavin]

2.  Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?

I can't answer why, definitively, however, two reasons come to mind as possibilities.

Ballyneal was kind of a GCA.com baby. Tom, leaked the first site visit before he even went. ('03?) And when he returned he posted a picture of the raw land. The randomness of the rolls combined with a sandy look, tugged at the souls of us gca.com veteran geek-o-philes.

The other reason is a humanistic one. It's likely poor form to discuss the financials of any private course, unless you have a capital interest. Using past poor form to justify current ones, ain't fly. Dig?

Well said.

[Bill_McBride]

I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.

I think Tom Doak directly disagrees with that statement - based on his comments on the getting started thread.
And this is where Don Mahaffey and I first met, including many other business relationships.

this site may not impact "golf", but it does effect golf architecture as a business and an art
Cheers

Not to mention a lot of good friends and interconnections.  

[Tim Martin]

I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.

I'm tempted to make a tagline change...

Best of luck to all parties involved.

George-I`ll flip you for it. That`s a classic.

[Sean Leary]

I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...

For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!

Hi Pete,

He wasn't talking about a national destination club model though...

[Pete Lavallee]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

[JC Jones]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

Pete,

Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:

1.  Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2.  Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

I am thinking that right now they are just hoping to have a course to play going forward...

[Pete Lavallee]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

Pete,

Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:

1.  Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2.  Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have

Call me sentimental, but if I can't have a tequilla with Rupert I might pick option 1.

Seriously, I do think that the golf course at Ballyneal will survive. Obviously it will need to be structured quite differently or have a deep pockets sugar daddy. But it was always intended to be a private club and going forward will still need to be one to survive. But giving away $1K national membership seems a slap in the face to those who did the heavy lifting and helped push the ship away from the pier.

[Dan Byrnes]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

Pete,

Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:

1.  Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2.  Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have

This stuff is a real issue whenever troubles like this happen but in the end you have to adjust to a new reality whatever that happens to be, the past is the past.  There are a few places still where the remaining members would write checks to save the place but I would say that is getting rarer and rarer.

During the "saving my club period" I did a lower cost membership 3k vs say 5k for new folks.  A bunch of the old members were quite upset and I understood why but in the end I either needed to do that or charge 7k and 7k would never fly, so in the end that was what was necessary for survival with a plan to meet both categories at 4k eventually if we were successful in year 2 but never got to year 2.

If you paid a high initiation in the past that is worthless today its better for the club to survive and still use it and perhaps recover one day than to lose the initiation and the right to play it and any chance at recovery.  Still its a bitter pill to swallow for many.  Initiations at inflated rates are like any bad investment, like my internet stocks, no one is going to bail you out of it.  Other than highly desirable places the high initiation fee is gone for now and maybe forever without better protection in case of club failure.

Dan

[Carl Nichols]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.

While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.

So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.

Thats a fair question John,

But there are a few differences.  
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds.  More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2)  I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal.  Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3)  Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.

Kalen:
Don't forget that $1,000 doesn't really get you even a single round at Pebble, or at least a guaranteed one, since to get a tee time in advance you have to stay at the resort, where the cheapest room is $600/night.  So if you want to be able to get a tee time in advance, Pebble really costs more than $1,100/round. . . .

[JR Potts]

Pete,

I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?

No, of course it wasn't.

JR,

Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?

It won't.  But, we don't seem to be talking about a traditional membership and traditional club here do we?  We're talking about a club in the middle of nowhere and allegedly in foreclosure.

The analysis and question where Pat was referenced was wholly different than what we're possibly dealing with here.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.

While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.

So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.

Thats a fair question John,

But there are a few differences.  
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds.  More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2)  I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal.  Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3)  Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.

Kalen:
Don't forget that $1,000 doesn't really get you even a single round at Pebble, or at least a guaranteed one, since to get a tee time in advance you have to stay at the resort, where the cheapest room is $600/night.  So if you want to be able to get a tee time in advance, Pebble really costs more than $1,100/round. . . .

Karl,

All the more reason a scenario like Ballyneal would be more interesting/doable than Pebble.

[Mike Sweeney]

In reference to the Euro model for Ballyneal and similar clubs, I got my club newsletter from Enniscrone GC in Ireland and they had a tough year. They laid off two staff members and I could feel the pain of the President who wrote the letter across an ocean.

Reality is golf in general and destination clubs specifically need more play.

My question is whatever model wins out at Ballyneal, can it survive without carts?

The knee jerk reaction here is to point to Bandon, but obviously it is much cooler there in the summer.

Does walking only give Ballyneal a unique position in a crowded market, or does it limit play moving forward?

[J_ Crisham]

Sean,

Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?

Pete,

Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:

1.  Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2.  Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have

Call me sentimental, but if I can't have a tequilla with Rupert I might pick option 1.

Seriously, I do think that the golf course at Ballyneal will survive. Obviously it will need to be structured quite differently or have a deep pockets sugar daddy. But it was always intended to be a private club and going forward will still need to be one to survive. But giving away $1K national membership seems a slap in the face to those who did the heavy lifting and helped push the ship away from the pier.

Pete,  I have made 2 trips out to Ballyneal over the last 3 yrs and each time I was there the place was almost empty. One trip was in June the other in Sept. I had a very enjoyable time both withthe golf and amenities. Ironically both times we left ,the discussion was the same-how can this club cash flow given the low number of rounds and insufficient usage of the restaurant,bar and very well appointed rooms?.If the model were similar to Pine Valley where you charge a nominal initiation fee,hypothetically$5000 and then charge 2K per year and have 1200 members,you have solved your cash flow problem. The problems that I see are: 1) is that it is difficult to get to -3hrs from Denver airport. 2)Lodging is selflimiting-how many golfers can stay on grounds at one time? 3) Its the only show in town- in Philly you have 10 other excellent choices to chose from if you are looking at other golf. 4) Short season- probably mid May to late Sept. In closing, the reality is that golfers can only support so many destination clubs/courses. When you start to think about Sand Hills, Dismal River, Seccession etc,there is a finite supply of golfers that have the interest ,time and resources to keep these destination clubs afloat.

[Mike Benham]

My question is whatever model wins out at Ballyneal, can it survive without carts?

There you go, causing trouble again, bringing up the dreaded "C" word ...