Ballyneal in foreclosure

[John Kavanaugh]

Morgan,

I believe the members of both clubs are happy to pay to play.  It is a sad reality that somebody gotta pay.

[Greg Tallman]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?

[Brad Isaacs]

Let's go for Dismal owning Bally

[Greg Tallman]

Here's a simple idea that would add value to members of both clubs. And I think it would give each club incremental revenue as it would drive more memberships and guest play for each.

Ballyneal gives Dismal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Dismal gives Ballyneal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.

Obviously, the 200-300 number could be tweaked. And restrictions would have to be added (ex: each member could visit the other only 1x a year, Sun-Thu only, etc.).

Having quasi membership access to a 2nd amazing club would be very appealing to many.

From a marketing perspective I believe folding them into a single club would be far more powerful/appealing than promoting "access".
Either way this seems like the perfect case study for such a union.

[Carl Nichols]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country.  (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.)  Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year.  If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round.  [$8,000/36].  If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.  

[Greg Tallman]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country.  (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.)  Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year.  If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round.  [$8,000/36].  If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.  

Those intent on "penciling the numbers" on a membership will most likely be public golfers forever. Not that this is a bad thing.

[Jud_T]

Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?

I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.  

[Greg Tallman]

Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?

I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.  

Damn, could not remember if Gil was part of the deal or not. Round of golf on Ocean or a dinner at Nick-San on me.

[Jud_T]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country.  (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.)  Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year.  If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round.  [$8,000/36].  If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.  

Carl,

Couple of points:

1.  Try joining a club in NY, Chicago or LA for 5k dues per year, not to mention a significantly higher downstroke.

2.  I assume these local clubs you're talking about aren't all Doak 8's and 9's.

3.  23 rounds is only 2 trips for the GCA fanatic crowd.  If 1 or more other family members plays and/or if the club in question is within driving distance, it's a layup.

4.  In my case, my wife and son both play and there's probably only 2 clubs in my hometown with golf as good or better than my national club, although both have inferior playing surfaces.  Not to mention the fact that neither would have me and they're probably 3x the price for dues and a much higher multiple for the downstroke.

5. Not everything in life is about dollars and cents.  I assume you don't shop exclusively at the Dollar store or aspire to being the next Hetty Green...  

[Carl Nichols]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country.  (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.)  Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year.  If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round.  [$8,000/36].  If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.  

Those intent on "penciling the numbers" on a membership will most likely be public golfers forever. Not that this is a bad thing.

I agree, but for those who are going to do the numbers, might as well get them right.

[Carl Nichols]

It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs.  I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family  .  Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...

That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country.  (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.)  Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year.  If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round.  [$8,000/36].  If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.  

Carl,

Couple of points:

1.  Try joining a club in NY, Chicago or LA for 5k dues per year, not to mention a significantly higher downstroke.

2.  I assume these local clubs you're talking about aren't all Doak 8's and 9's.

3.  23 rounds is only 2 trips for the GCA fanatic crowd.  If 1 or more other family members plays and/or if the club in question is within driving distance, it's a layup.

4.  In my case, my wife and son both play and there's probably only 2 clubs in my hometown with golf as good or better than my national club, although both have inferior playing surfaces.  Not to mention the fact that neither would have me and they're probably 3x the price for dues and a much higher multiple for the downstroke.

5. Not everything in life is about dollars and cents.  I assume you don't shop exclusively at the Dollar store or aspire to being the next Hetty Green...  

Jud,

These are all assumptions that may or may not be true in all cases, or that don't always cut in your favor.  For example, the same GCA fanatic who plays 11 rounds on a trip also probably doesn't play just 1 time a week at home (an assumption I made to be conservative, but that can be made much more aggressive and drive the numbers much cheaper).  

As for your point (5), I agree completely [and am a member at a club notwithstanding the per-round cost], but you were the one who started with the dollars and cents argument, which I was just responding to.  

[Kalen Braley]

I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....

And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.

P.S. Its like JK always says.  Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! 

[Bruce Wellmon]

Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?

I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.  

Damn, could not remember if Gil was part of the deal or not. Round of golf on Ocean or a dinner at Nick-San on me.

As the OC, Nick-San is so very good.

[Jud_T]

Nick-San is excellent, although given my druthers I'd take this one:

http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/mexico/baja-california/san-jose-del-cabo/66969/don-emiliano/restaurant-detail.html

[Greg Tallman]

Nick-San is excellent.  Although given my druthers I'd take this one:

http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/mexico/baja-california/san-jose-del-cabo/66969/don-emiliano/restaurant-detail.html

Amazingly I have never eaten there... I need to spend more time in San José versus San Lucas. That said best dinner in SJ is a place simply called "H".

[Ted Kramer]

Haven't read this whole thread but I just wanted to add the following . . .
I'm saddened to read that there are problems at Ballyneal.
I had one of the greatest golfing / living experiences of my life at Ballyneal.
I was invited very generously by someone who I "met" here, to spend a day or 2 at the club with my best friend who lives in CO.
It was a wonderful way to spend some time with a great friend in an incredible setting.
The course is one of the very best I've ever seen and or played.
The people at the club could not possibly have been more kind and or welcoming.
I'm wishing the very best to all involved.

Best,
Ted

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

H was pointed out to me by the Cabo guide himself...I will second that recomendation.

[Greg Tallman]

H was pointed out to me by the Cabo guide himself...I will second that recomendation.

As part of this new unified club maybe we can get Papa and hijo Espinosa to open a restaurant at each facility club with one trying to outdo the other. Heck I might join this club if it came to pass.

[Howard Riefs]

Good to see BN making a hard push for new members.

From the National Membership thread:

Wow! This just came across my inbox:

Ballyneal

Initiation: $10,000
Dues: $4,000/yr regional member (within 300 miles); $2,500/yr national member (outside of 300 miles)

They also instituted some incentives if you and your friends join:
2 Golfers = $1,000 club usage credit per each new member
3 Golfers = $1,500 club usage credit per each new member
4 Golfers = $2,000 club usage credit per each new member
5 Golfers =$2,500 club usage credit per each new member

[Sean_A]

I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....

And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.

P.S. Its like JK always says.  Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! 

If this is the case, why are clubs closing shop and/or struggling?  Furthermore, why aren't these empty slots being snatched up?  Sure, the elite clubs will always be able to switch people off to the cost per round analysis because they are either loaded and/or like the cache of elite membership, but I can assure you, there are plenty of golfers out there who will do the numbers and act accordingly.  With folks having less time (or not as willing to devote time to the club) for club life, the reasons for joining a club are less compelling these days.  This is going back some time now, but when I figured my cost per round just for golf was going to be north of $100 per game I declined to join the club I had been associated with since childhood. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....

And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.

P.S. Its like JK always says.  Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! 

If this is the case, why are clubs closing shop and/or struggling?  Furthermore, why aren't these empty slots being snatched up?  Sure, the elite clubs will always be able to switch people off to the cost per round analysis because they are either loaded and/or like the cache of elite membership, but I can assure you, there are plenty of golfers out there who will do the numbers and act accordingly.  With folks having less time (or not as willing to devote time to the club) for club life, the reasons for joining a club are less compelling these days.  This is going back some time now, but when I figured my cost per round just for golf was going to be north of $100 per game I declined to join the club I had been associated with since childhood. 

Ciao

Sean,

You hit the nail on the head....less time, less money.

In my previous post, I was only referring to the people who still have more time and more money, but you would be right that there are indeed less and less of these peeps floating around these days.