Ballyneal in foreclosure

[Jud_T]

This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu.  But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member".  Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year.  When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger.  Others still prefer the one night stand.  Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...

[Daryl David]

Well said, Keith.  

I personally am not interested in belonging to a place no matter how good the course is unless I am truly comfortable with the club.  I can visit great golf courses and enjoy them as a visitor without making the emotional investment to be a member.

When it comes to investing that emotion in belonging to a club, I am only interested in one that has members that are interesting, entertaining and share my same passions for the game.  One where you always feel at home when you visit.  Where you don't feel like a customer, but more like a steward of something important to your member friends.  You should feel accountable for the club's success and work hard toward that and not just tickled to death about what a good deal you got when you joined.  

To belong to a club like I just described that also happens to have a great golf course is the sweet spot.  Doesn't happen often and it isn't because of the golf course.  Think about the clubs you know that even in this day and age have a waiting list.  It is not always about how good the course is, but usually how good the club is.    All you have to do is read all the postings on this site about this great course and that great course where you can join for a song.  I have left situations where the golf course was awesome, but the club was not to my liking.  Do I miss the course?  Sure.  But not enough to hang around wasting my golfing time.  

[Jud_T]

Daryl,

You bring up a valid point, a club is it's membership.  However, I'd say as far as pricing vs. course quality it has a hell of a lot more to do with location than culture in most instances...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Greg's idea is such a well duh!!!...it makes you wonder why somebody hasnt already done this.
Those who have met Greg realise this guy is no normal club pro...his knowledge and know how of the golf business go well beyond the restrictions of most club pros...I like his idea and believe if one could get the right people across the right table this could be a huge merger that would benefit everybody involved..

[George Pazin]

Greg's idea is such a well duh!!!...it makes you wonder why somebody hasn't already done this.

The problem is reconciling the egos.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I somehow do not see anyone going for that in either membership. They are different places.

[Chris Johnston]

All

As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good.  Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important.  No matter the club, don't underestimate sense of place, and belonging.  If you are considering joining one, I'm happy if you choose any of the options, so I don't see anyone else as competition.  Each is different and one may simply fit you better than another for a number of reasons.  The people who choose Dismal (including a handful of guys here) love it, and I suspect it will be the same with Ballyneal if they do things right.  Based on activity at Dismal, I believe there is plenty of interest in all of the clubs.

Greg T - Yoiu are indeed wise.  We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies.  I agree with you that the clubs being aligned would be something very special, and unique, in the world of golf. Having access to both cool places under one membership would probably appeal to an even more broad base, especillay if the cost to join was very resonable.  And, the existing members would be free to play either, or both, as they see fit.

[David Kelly]

This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu.  But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member".  Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year.  When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger.  Others still prefer the one night stand.  Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...

You win the "tortured metaphor of the day" award for that.

[Greg Tallman]

All

As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good.  Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important.  No matter the club, don't underestimate sense of place, and belonging.  If you are considering joining one, I'm happy if you choose any of the options, so I don't see anyone else as competition.  Each is different and one may simply fit you better than another for a number of reasons.  The people who choose Dismal (including a handful of guys here) love it, and I suspect it will be the same with Ballyneal if they do things right.  Based on activity at Dismal, I believe there is plenty of interest in all of the clubs.

Greg T - Yoiu are indeed wise.  We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies.  I agree with you that the clubs being aligned would be something very special, and unique, in the world of golf. Having access to both cool places under one membership would probably appeal to an even more broad base, especillay if the cost to join was very resonable.  And, the existing members would be free to play either, or both, as they see fit.

Take it a step further (after this I  wish to be compenstaed  ). As Tom is designing a course alongside his Jack's at Dismal, in fairness, allow Jack to design the second alongside Tom's at BN. Given Jack has some stake in Dismal and thus the new merged club of course his fee would be "on the cheap" and appealing to Curlander's group.

Somebody make a phone call.

[Sven Nilsen]

All

As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good.

Chris:

I think you touched on a worthy talking point.  That is, did Ballyneal and Dismal actually follow the Sand Hills template.  From a type of course built perspective, I'd say yes.  If its a question of the economics, I don't think they did.

My guess is that Ballyneal was built for something in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 million, if not more.  I've heard a number north of 30 million for Dismal (not including the new course).  Based on what I know of the modest infrastructure at Sand Hills, i can't imagine it was built for anything approaching those numbers.  

Sand Hills also came first, and to great acclaim.  It was probably an easy sell for them to reach their quota of members, those needed to sustain the enterprise.  DR and BN were the late-comers to the party.  As evidenced by the comments discussing the rush to get BN open before DR, at some point there was competition to attract new members.  Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked.  Throw in the economic events that took place in 2007 and that pool becomes even smaller.

So both clubs were left with a quota that was probably a bit higher than the number Sand Hills needed to keep the lights on with a shrinking pool of potential members.  It doesn't surprise me that they both struggled, to break even they probably had to double or triple the revenue of the template setter.

Sven

PS - The Dismal figure I quoted above is a number that stuck in my head from past discussions, it may be off.  I didn't think you'd care too much about throwing it out there, as it pertains to the original ownership and not any costs incurred under your tenure.

[Mark Saltzman]

  Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked.  

Does Prairie Dunes fit this equation? It's been around for a while.

[Howard Riefs]

This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu.  But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member".  Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year.  When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger.  Others still prefer the one night stand.  Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...

Does Kingsley know you're cheating on her with your Bandon trips?

[John Kirk]

Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.  

Call me nuts but I think there is something there.

Greg,

At present, these courses host a few thousand rounds per year.  New golf courses are expensive to build and maintain, and I would argue they are an unnecessary expense.  In the case of Ballyneal, the existing course is very special, and I see no need to expand the golfing facilities unless rounds per year exceeded 15-20k.

[Greg Tallman]

Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.  

Call me nuts but I think there is something there.

Greg,

At present, these courses host a few thousand rounds per year.  New golf courses are expensive to build and maintain, and I would argue they are an unnecessary expense.  In the case of Ballyneal, the existing course is very special, and I see no need to expand the golfing facilities unless rounds per year exceeded 15-20k.

John, I am one who believes that that think inside the box during times such as these are almost certainly headed for failure.

[John Kirk]

OK, Greg, I'll bite.  What makes "times such as these" different?

[Sven Nilsen]

  Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked.  

Does Prairie Dunes fit this equation? It's been around for a while.

Don't know for sure, but I'd bet you get a bit more of the day visit type of golfer/member at PD than you do at the other courses.

[Greg Tallman]

OK, Greg, I'll bite.  What makes "times such as these" different?

Honestly?

Sour economy
Golf course shrinkage (it was cold!)

[John Kirk]

Way to keep it light and happy.  I appreciate that.

Compared to the typical GCA member, I have a rather dismal view of future golf economics, and though I am not involved in the golf business, I would recommend proceeding with caution.  The big difference between you and me is how we perceive today's sour economy.  Maybe I'm your basic conservative liberal.

[JC Jones]

This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu.  But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member".  Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year.  When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger.  Others still prefer the one night stand.  Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...

Does Kingsley know you're cheating on her with your Bandon trips?

He should be ashamed of himself. 

[Sean Leary]

Prairie Dunes is different because there is a large local membership and no debt. That being said, PD relies very heavily on the 150 national members it has to stay in the black, both in dues and mor importantly, the dollars that are spent there by the national members and their guests.

[Greg Tallman]

Way to keep it light and happy.  I appreciate that.

Compared to the typical GCA member, I have a rather dismal view of future golf economics, and though I am not involved in the golf business, I would recommend proceeding with caution.  The big difference between you and me is how we perceive today's sour economy.  Maybe I'm your basic conservative liberal.

I am in the golf, resort and development business... trust me, the economy is like year old milk.

Perhaps it's just Mexico?

[John Kirk]

We are in danger of changing the course of this thread, which was solid today.  Let's leave it there.

[Jim Colton]

Thread killer!

[Chris Johnston]

Greg - I agree with you here too.  That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.

Sven, you aren't far off.  Luckily, we have very little debt.

All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal?  If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?

[jeffwarne]

Greg - I agree with you here too.  That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.

Sven, you aren't far off.  Luckily, we have very little debt.

All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal?  If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?

Chris,
It's hard for me to see why merging would help. They're hours apart.
Are you assuming more members would be attracted to  both? (thus upping the total # of dues payers)
or are you assuming members would pay more for access to both.
Hard to see many efficiencies-hard to share a super,pro,or manager hours apart, or even equipment for that matter.
certainly staff could be rotated for events, but it would seem that both places would need to be pretty booked during peak season to do well
.Can you help me to understand?