Ballyneal in foreclosure

[Brad Isaacs]

Matt,
Quoting many of my friends who have out there multiple times with me, why should I join, I can go with you as much as I would ever want to. 
They didn't go through a foreclosure because they had  a business model that made them a lot of cash.  They have the same, perhaps smaller customer base of members.

Maybe Mr. Curlander , who isn't a golfer, will support a club that lost money and seemingly will continue to lose money  for a while. 

So , I am confused. When I first went out there, I called, they said come on out........Why when they are trying to build a club would it be different?

[Jim Colton]

It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?

Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.

[John Kavanaugh]

It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?

When I visited the Prairie Club last year it felt like there were more members than public paying customers.  Each day only members are allowed to play one of the 18's and they have a private bar and pool room upstairs.

I am looking for better things out of them now that they hired Kemper Sports to manage the place.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Brad, I do not find anything you said to be correct on any level other than you are just posting an opinion of your own.

[Sean Leary]

It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?

Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.

Agreed, hence the Outpost Club exists and seems to thrive...

My local club and national club are (or will be very soon) Outpost Club participants. I can't blame them one iota for it. My cost per round at my national club is very high but only because I only go once or twice a year. The good news is though that it is very inexpensive for my guests, which is good, since it is expensive to get there.

[Brad Isaacs]

It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?

Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.

I agree with you, Jim.  When you are club building the line was blurred and the blurr was not the goal, just the reality. I don't know what the ultimate reality will be!  Pine Valley or Pebble Beach( probably not Pebble as there is only watching corn grow or shooting things other than golf, oops drinking etc.)

[Matt MacIver]

No knowing ONE THING about BN's issues or back stories, I wonder if a viable solution given the location is to allow public play M-T-W and then limited and/or none as you move closer to the weekend?  Would give the tourists/drive-by-ers a chance to play, get some increased revenue and marketing traffic, but it would still be (and feel) like a private on the weekend, when most Members presumably come for a few days and want to "own" their course? 

Good luck to all, can't wait to see it one day. 

[Les Cordes]

its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..

the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..

it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..

[Tim Martin]

its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..

the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..

it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..

Additionally the public/private model allows flexibility as to the split of times which I think gets honed and changed as required. It would seem Pasatiempo is a great example of a successful model.

[Les Cordes]

tim ... that is exactly correct .. over time modifications are made until you hit the perceived sweet spot with the members ...and/or you can adjust with flexibility to the economic environment when revenue becomes more of an issue ..

in that way its a pretty cool model .. like an "investment" ... diversification of the revenue stream  is key ..

[Bill_McBride]

its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..

the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..

it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..

Pasatiempo is the closest I've seen to what I consider a great model in the UK, high end privates (even Muirfield and Sunningdale!) that are happy to let the well-behaved non-member play at certain times.   Everyone seems to be happy over there, and yes, the dues structure for members is well supported by the outsiders paying 125 quid to play.

[Les Cordes]

it's really funny ... but in the mid 90's when i joined pasa the annual dues was about $1000 .. now things have tightened up in part due to large capital intensive projects like the cart paths, sprinkler system, restoration, cart shack...etc ..in addition to the economy ..and declining golf popularity..

still attractive financially, tho ..

there is enough at these great courses for everybody .. they do not necessarily need to be "exclusive" ..

[Pete Lavallee]

Les,

You can function that way at Pasa because you are NOT a private club but are incorporated. There are huge ramifications for tax purposes between the two models. I agree that your model is great, but the privates do like to keep the unwashed at bay by insuring that they derive no more than 10% from outside sources. That 10% just isn't enough income to make a real difference.

[Les Cordes]

Pete .. True enough ... and a good distinction  ... I am not conversant enough
on the business organization side to know what models  would be feasible in this setting ..

could it be as siimple as a "public" entity offering special conditions for people who pay
annual dues and/or a membership fee ..?? Not sure..!   

[Ben Sims]

Les,

Though I agree that the private/public model is attractive, I think Pasa is unique based on two things.  1)  They have as much history as just about anyone around and 2) The "share" is a unique approach and is a large barrier to entry.

Even though 1K a yr is incredible for a club like Pasa, I've heard some stories about the dot boom price for a share being in the neighborhood of another mortgage.

[Pete Balzer]

It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?

Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.

I am a member at Prairie Club. We are up to 275ish members. Guest rounds last season seemed to be up significantly. It seems that they have  pricing power for guest rounds/lodging, the price has basically tripled since opening.  I have heard  different numbers of members targeted to build Old School. I believe it's still quite a way down the road.

[Les Cordes]

yes, ben .. the good 'ole days of high share prices ... and they were high .. no more ..!

getting back to bally ... and drawing on local experiences ..the private model has taken a huge hit ... and is gasping for air ... why then pursue it in an even more problematic and stressful geography like the Holyoke area .. ?? i was very surprised when i read in the thread that Bally had only 75 members .. just to be contrarian,  perhaps the $5000/year dues for a "shorter" season is as much a barrier as a higher .. say $50k .... initiation fee ..

[Kirk Gill]

It is amazing to me how many golfers I talk to in the Denver area have never heard of Ballyneal. I won't disagree with those who say that folks here are used to their recreational opportunities being west of town, but making a turn east isn't impossible, especially if the product is something to believe in. Knowing that the place exists is an important first step. Of course, I could be talking to golfers who are in the wrong economic echelon........

[Richard Choi]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

[Bill_McBride]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

richard, don marquis wrote a book ... or was it a poem? ... about a cockroach named archie and his girlfriend mehitabel.  archie couldn't hold down the shift key and a letter key at the same time, hence no capitalization.  it was a big success.

[Howard Riefs]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

broken shift key? ...stuck period key? ...

[David Lott]

Changing the debt, ownership or membership structure is relevant only if they can generate an operating profit, which no one seems to have focused on in this thread. Operating profit means that expenses (golf operations, personnel, cart expense, maintenance, utilities, taxes, insurance, cost of bar and restaurant, promotion and advertising, management overhead, legal, accounting, etc.) have to be exceeded by income (daily fees, dues, bar and restaurant income, event income, etc.) There must also be enough working capital to carry the operation, particularly important given the seasonality.

Operating profit is the primary calculation, and if you can't generate a profit consistently from operations in the short season they have, you aren't going to be viable. The new owners doubtless are trying to figure that one out. The "structure" or "model" will derive from those factors, and those factors alone.

I wish bonny good luck to all concerned.

[PThomas]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

what does it matter if he is typing phrases, etc??

[Kalen Braley]

Pete,

Glad to hear TPC is doing well.  I plan on stopping in for a day to check it out and play a little golf during my visit to nebraska late this summer.  I've heard fantastic things about the Dunes Course and to my luck it is the "Public" course on the day I'll be able to get up that way.

Kalen

[John Kavanaugh]

Les, a serious question.

Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?

what does it matter if he is typing phrases, etc??

Paul,

It is rude and shows a lack of respect for your fellow GCA members to not at least capitalize when appropriate.  I figure it might be a Blackberry thing because an iPhone does it automatically.