Ballyneal in foreclosure

[Jud_T]

Michael,

With absolutely no inside knowledge whatsoever, I'd be willing to wager a trip to Ballyneal, Sand Hills and Dismal River that it survives as a private club.   

[David Hendler]

Michael,

With absolutely no inside knowledge whatsoever, I'd be willing to wager a trip to Ballyneal, Sand Hills and Dismal River that it survives as a private club.   

A place that is as well-regarded as Ballyneal, I have to agree unless the debt is a ridiculous number.

[Tim Pitner]

Sorry to hear it and I wish everyone there the best.

For whatever reason, I don't sense that Ballyneal is well-known to the golf community in Denver, the closest metropolitan area.  Far more people are familiar with Sand Hills, despite the fact that Ballyneal is significantly closer.  (Perhaps to the surprise of many here, neither are that well-known to the majority of golfers).  I'm not saying that has anything to do with Ballyneal's current status, but I find it surprising.

If (big if) the model for Ballyneal were to change, would something like a Prairie Club (memberships plus resort play) work?  How is Prairie Club doing, by the way?  I'm not looking for dirt here, I'm just curious whether, to date, it's generally regarded as successful or struggling.  

[Michael George]

Jud:

I am known to make a bad wager in my time - see my Vegas players card for proof.  However, not even I would make that bet.

Deleted remainder.

[Tony Weiler]

I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place.  The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable.  Here is hoping the same for BN. 

[Kalen Braley]

I too am grateful for the one visit I had to the place.

I'm not sure how these processes work under the covers, but here's to hoping it gets the most favorable treatment possible, and at the very least limited funds will be available to maintain whats there to a rudimentary level before it can be brought back.  It would certainly be a shame to lose a gem of a course like this.

[Mac Plumart]

This is sad news, but I am betting this course survives and eventually thrives.  It is too good and already has a history in the golf world developing.  It is my contention that The Ben Cox Marathon grows in stature over time and Ballyneal is linked to that wonderful event. 

Let's cross our fingers and hope for the best.  But like I said, I feel good the course will remain standing.

[John Kavanaugh]

I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place.  The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable.  Here is hoping the same for BN. 

Dismal never went through foreclosure. I'm sorry for everyone who is suffering though this trying event but feel I should recognize those who protected my equity during difficult times.

[C. Squier]

Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not.  Maybe he wants to see the right thing done. 
Stick to GOlf Design??
Comment to him is basically unfair.  I would suggest listen to him. 

If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail. 

My comment was anything but unfair.  Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity.  Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business.  The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises. 

Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today.  To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.

[Jud_T]

Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity. 

Really?  Seems like most of us have been working for free for the past 3 years... 

[Michael Dugger]

Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not.  Maybe he wants to see the right thing done.  
Stick to GOlf Design??
Comment to him is basically unfair.  I would suggest listen to him.  

If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail.  

My comment was anything but unfair.  Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity.  Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business.  The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises.  

Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today.  To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.

Only on gca.com    Our hearts are breaking for all the banksters.

I think Mr. Doak's comment was simply to point out when faced with a situation such as this, it is often easier and quicker dealing with a bank then it is a private investor.

[Kalen Braley]

Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not.  Maybe he wants to see the right thing done. 
Stick to GOlf Design??
Comment to him is basically unfair.  I would suggest listen to him. 

If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail. 

My comment was anything but unfair.  Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity.  Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business.  The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises. 

Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today.  To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.

Only on gca.com  Our hearts are breaking for all the banksters.

I could only hope/wish/dream that when/if I'm on the verge of financial ruin, the taxpayers will bail me out!! 

[Michael George]

Deleted.

[Bart Bradley]

 

[Michael George]

Deleted.

[C. Squier]

Clint, I do not think your "stick with building golf courses" is appropriate.  I am sure that Tom has more insight into many aspects of this situation that we don't have.

My (tongue in cheek) comment referred to his notion that the debt holder should just take the immediate offer at any price.  Debt restructure is a zero sum game.....no side deserves any more or less than perfect equilibrium.  Even though debt holders (whether bank or private) are the boogey man - du jour, they still warrant a fair deal....not just what's in the best interest of the borrower.  We get so worked up over losing a great golf course that we forget that the financing came from an entity that held up their end of the bargain and deserves remuneration.  No matter what the idiots occupying wall st instead of their parent's basements say. 

For what it's worth, Mr. Doak (who I respect fully) has reminded plenty of us to stick at playing golf courses and leave the designing to GCA's.  From reading him, I doubt he'll lose much sleep by my comment.

Re: everyone's criticism of banks and financing companies, I will never complain when they actually are making loans - as in this case.  My complaint currently is that they are borrowing money for nothing and instead of the intended effect of them making loans to spur the economy, they are hoarding it and making money off spreads.

Pretty sure banks make their spreads off loans....if not, I better get out of the business.  The only thing today that raising deposits/liabilities and hoarding the cash does is stress capital ratios....it surely doesn't make money unless it's being reinvested in risk-weighted assets (loans).  Plenty of people want a loan, but if their homes are underwater or their business is unprofitable (and looks like it will remain unprofitable) there just isn't much a lender can do. 

That said, I'm smart enough to know when the torches and pitchforks are marching towards you it's probably time to bow out.  I hope the situation w/ Ballyneal works out for everyone involved. 

[JR Potts]

Clint:

I stand in solidarity.  However, despite what Tom said, the perception is that there are steals to be had when Banks are attempting to free up capital and liquidate their REO and I read Tom's comment to suggest that - nothing more.

Further, I can second the notion that private entities are much harder to work with than financial institutions.  More often than not, private entites have a more vested interest into the collateral and often times, especially after paper has traded, actually want the collateral, not a pay-off.

Hope it works out for all.  I'm bowing out with Clint.

JRP

[Michael George]

Deleted.

[erichunter]

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[George Pazin]

I don't understand the "deserves remuneration" comment

If you don't understand this, you are beyond help.

[Mike Hendren]

Deleted.

[Michael George]

Deleted.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Alec Baldwin hit this topic spot on in this clip when he was walking around one of the Occupy protest sites:

"You want the banks to do what the banks do.....but when the banks start throwing thier elbow in your eye socket...you want the SEC to throw the flag, but the SEC never throws the flag"

Go to the 2:00 Minute mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnc7iak6ms

[David Stamm]

I think Alec Baldwin hit this topic spot on in this clip when he was walking around one of the Occupy protest sites:

"You want the banks to do what the banks do.....but when the banks start throwing thier elbow in your eye socket...you want the SEC to throw the flag, but the SEC never throws the flag"

Go to the 2:00 Minute mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnc7iak6ms

The only thing he hit was the ignorance button.

Do you have any idea how and why the Fed Reserve came about, Kalen? Listen to this and educate yourself.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8484911570371055528#

[David_Elvins]

Just did some costings.

If Colton was to play 3231 holes in a day, he could raise enough money to buy ballyneal.