[Ally Mcintosh]

Published today...

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2011/11/14/golf-digest-irelands-top-100-ranking-2012.html

1. Royal County Down (=)
2. Portmarnock  (=)
3. Royal Portrush (=)
4. Waterville (+2)
5. Ballybunion (Old) (=)
6. Lahinch (+1)
7. Tralee (+3)
8. The European (-4)
9. Co. Louth (Baltray) (=)
10. Adare (-2)
11. Co. Sligo (=)
12. The Island  (=)
13. Ballyliffin (Glashedy Links) (+3)
14. Enniscrone (+3)
15. Mount Juliet (-2)
16. Donegal (Murvagh Links) (+3)
17. Portstewart (Strand)  (+3)
18. Killeen Castle (-4)
19. Royal Dublin (-1)
20. The K-Club (Palmer) (-5)
21. Belmullet (Carne) (+4)
22. Ballyliffin (Old Links)  (+10)
23. Doonbeg Links  (+13)
24. The Old Head of Kinsale (+23)
25. Rosapenna (Sandy Hills) (-4)
26. Killarney (Killeen) (-3)
27. Portsalon  (+8)
28. Carton House (Montgomerie Course)  (+2)
29. Carlow  (-5)
30. Cork  (-1)
31. Portmarnock Links (=)
32. Lough Erne  (-10)
33. Dooks (+4)
34. Rosapenna (Old Tom Morris) (-1)
35. Castlerock (-7)
36. Headfort (New) (+4)
37. Druids Glen (-10)
38. Concra Wood  (+1)
39. Luttrellstown  (+10)
40. Fota Island (Deerpark) (NEW)
41. The K-Club (Smurfit) (-7)
42. Seapoint (-16)
43. Narin and Portnoo (+8)
44. The Heritage (NEW)
45. Slieve Russell (-3)
46. Palmerstown Stud (+8)
47. Tramore (+11)
48. Connemara (+8)
49. Carton House (O'Meara Course) (+3)
50. Powerscourt (West) (-12)
51. Belvoir Park (-8)
52. Malone (-11)
53. Portumna (+8)
54. Farnham Estate (-6)
55. Dun Laoghaire (-9)
56. Westport (-11)
57. Hermitage (=)
58. Royal Portrush (Valley) (-14)
59. Bunclody (=)
60. Dundalk(-10)
61. Tullamore (-8)
62. Glasson (-2)
63. Castletroy (+22)
64. Mount Wolseley (+12)
65. Arklow (-3)
66. Clandeboye (+3)
67. Rathsallagh (=)
68. Killarney (Lackabane) (-4)
69. Dromoland Castle (-4)
70. Druids Heath (-15)
71. Ardglass (-3)
72. Royal Belfast (+1)
73. Shannon (-1)
74. Grange (+10)
75. Powerscourt (East) (-12)
76. Castlemartyr (-2)
77. Laytown and Bettystown (+9)
78. Strandhill (+5)
79. Castle (+1)
80. Mullingar (-2)
81. Rosslare (+17)
82. St.Annes (-11)
83. Kilkenny (-17)
84. Skellig Bay (+3)
85. Knightsbrook (-6)
86. Bantry Bay (-16)
87. Galway (-6)
88. Galgorm Castle (-6)
89. Courtown (-14)
90. Ballinrobe (+1)
91. Ballybunion (Cashen) (+2)
92. Balbriggan (-15)
93. Kirkistown Castle (NEW)
94. Tulfarris (NEW)
95. New Forest (NEW)
96. Galway Bay (-7)
97. Moyvalley (NEW)
98. Ceann Sibheal (NEW)
99. Castleknock (NEW)
100. Woodenbridge (NEW)

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Brian,

Minus means moved down, plus means moved up... Your home course did rather well...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Anyone on here care to explain how Waterville could justify a place in the Top 5?


Usual personal gripes e.g  Portrush Valley  falling so far.  (Some might protest re Standhills?)


Ally you would know better than anyone but what percentage of the courses are either new or significantly reworked in the past 25 years.  'There's no doubt the tail of Irish Golf has got a lot longer but given the abundance of new links land that became available in that time I can't help feel there's been a never to be repeated, opportunity missed.

[Scott Warren]

The European down four spots.

In the recent Golf Magazine World Top 100 it slid 10 places from 85 to 95.

I wonder what is driving that? Whether perhaps it is "of an era" that tastes are moving away from?

Or perhaps with US-based panellists now having fast and firm seaside golf more prevalent and available in their homeland courtesy of Bandon, they are gaining a greater appreciation for how a links should play?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anyone on here care to explain how Waterville could justify a place in the Top 5?


Usual personal gripes e.g  Portrush Valley  falling so far.  (Some might protest re Standhills?)


Ally you would know better than anyone but what percentage of the courses are either new or significantly reworked in the past 25 years.  'There's no doubt the tail of Irish Golf has got a lot longer but given the abundance of new links land that became available in that time I can't help feel there's been a never to be repeated, opportunity missed.

Tony, whilst personally I would not have jumped Waterville in to the top 5, most of the panel were highly impressed and there's no doubt that the move towards eradicating the rye and meadowgrasses has improved the course no end...

Valley Portrush - I hear you. Perhaps 2nd courses at 36 hole facilities suffer even more in ranking tables if they are short?... A lot of the conversation revolved around where it fits with regards to other "2nd" courses such as Rosapenna and Ballyliffin and the rankings give the resulting feeling...

Brian - Tralee: wow factor won the day.... I agree that it would take something special to dislodge the top 6...

The European - not sure the answer Scott although tightness and playability certainly came up... there were no US representatives on this panel though...

Tony - At a rough guess, I'd say it must be over 50% of that list that are new courses or have had significant renovation or redesign in the last 25 years.... When you say opportunity missed, do you mean the courses that were built could have been better?... Or do you mean there could have been more courses of the links variety?

[Jud_T]

The fact that Waterville's above Ballybunion Old and Lahinch should be the aha moment that gets Digest to take the resistance to scoring criteria and shove it where the sun don't shine IMO...

[Jud_T]

Brain,

Waterville is a very good course and a good test.  I don't think anyone's denying that.  But to have it ranked above Ballybunion is absurd.

[Jim Nelson]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

[jeffwarne]

Anyone on here care to explain how Waterville could justify a place in the Top 5?


Usual personal gripes e.g  Portrush Valley  falling so far.  (Some might protest re Standhills?)


Ally you would know better than anyone but what percentage of the courses are either new or significantly reworked in the past 25 years.  'There's no doubt the tail of Irish Golf has got a lot longer but given the abundance of new links land that became available in that time I can't help feel there's been a never to be repeated, opportunity missed.

I haven't played Waterville since the redo, but from what I hear they addressed the few weaknesses it had.(meadow grass on some holes,weak/dull 1st and second)
It's not like Ballybunion doesn't have some weak holes.
also, some of the raters may have been soured by the zoo that Ballybunion has become(although perhaps the economy of the last several years may have addressed that.


Seeing 70 odd courses better than Ardglass and Strandhill and 97 better than Ceann Cibeal makes me want to book a flight!

[Jim Nelson]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

Thanks.  Didn't see it first time around.  Early here in Vegas.  Question.  Starting in Royal Portrush and working around to Carne, does the list get it right?  Anything we should add or avoid?

[jeffwarne]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

Thanks.  Didn't see it first time around.  Early here in Vegas.  Question.  Starting in Royal Portrush and working around to Carne, does the list get it right?  Anything we should add or avoid?

If you're using the list,(in the region you specify)
 Portrush Valley is highly underrated(I'd put it top 20 or higher)
Portsalon (top 10 easily)
Rosapenna Old(Doak/Ruddy nine +Old) pretty darn good-II'd reverse its' ranking with Sandy Hills
I'd also reverse the rankings of Narin and Portnoo and Donegal (sorry Sean I just don't see it )
I'd put narin and Portnoo ahead of Sligo as well

I'd also find room for Northwest GC and Dunfanaghy  in an itinerary in that area
They're  definitely Top 100 in Ireland
I'd also reverse the Ballyliffin rankings with Narin and Portnoo ahead of both

and if you're going to that area, you have to play Cruit Island (don't listen to the noise about 1-2 good holes)

[Shane Wright]

Other than Royal County Down, the others in the top 6 could be shuffled about any direction.  But the top 6 are the top 6, and unless something drastic happens or a new course is built, I don't see the top 6 changing much, if at all.  

There is no way Cashen should be that low.
And no way Carne should be that low.

[Cristian]

Any list which has Ballyliffin Glashedy above Ballyliffin Old is not of interest to me.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

Thanks.  Didn't see it first time around.  Early here in Vegas.  Question.  Starting in Royal Portrush and working around to Carne, does the list get it right?  Anything we should add or avoid?

If you're using the list,(in the region you specify)
 Portrush Valley is highly underrated(I'd put it top 20 or higher)
Portsalon (top 10 easily)
Rosapenna Old pretty darn good-II'd reverse its' ranking with Sandy Hills
I'd also reverse the rankings of Narin and Portnoo and Donegal (sorry Sean I just don't see it )
I'd put narin and Portnoo ahead of Sligo as well

I'd also find room for Northwest GC in an itinerary in that area
It's definitely Top 100 in Ireland

I was all out of sales talk when it came to North West... Perhaps next year... You can't win them all...

Christian - Ballyliffin Old is wonderful and it deserved its climb... But it's not all that... Glashedy offers drama where the Old offers consistency... They complement each other quite well... It's probably the best 36 holer in Ireland (possibly Portrush aside)...

I adore Portsalon...

[Jud_T]

There is no way Cashen should be that low.

Seriously?  I have a hard time believing there's 9 courses I'd enjoy less...

[Cristian]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

Thanks.  Didn't see it first time around.  Early here in Vegas.  Question.  Starting in Royal Portrush and working around to Carne, does the list get it right?  Anything we should add or avoid?

If you're using the list,(in the region you specify)
 Portrush Valley is highly underrated(I'd put it top 20 or higher)
Portsalon (top 10 easily)
Rosapenna Old pretty darn good-II'd reverse its' ranking with Sandy Hills
I'd also reverse the rankings of Narin and Portnoo and Donegal (sorry Sean I just don't see it )
I'd put narin and Portnoo ahead of Sligo as well

I'd also find room for Northwest GC in an itinerary in that area
It's definitely Top 100 in Ireland

I was all out of sales talk when it came to North West... Perhaps next year... You can't win them all...

Christian - Ballyliffin Old is wonderful and it deserved its climb... But it's not all that... Glashedy offers drama where the Old offers consistency... They complement each other quite well... It's probably the best 36 holer in Ireland (possibly Portrush aside)...

I adore Portsalon...

How would you divide 10 rounds over Old/Glashedy?
Me? 9-1
Pure rippling linksland over bulldozered macro-contours, hard brown fairways over irrigated sprinkler fairways. Open entrances to greens over several mandatory arial approaches.... The Glashedy is a nice course but the proximity of the Old shows exactly why the old links  courses will always beat the 'Links Nouveaux'.

[Shane Wright]

There is no way Cashen should be that low.

Seriously?  I have a hard time believing there's 9 courses I'd enjoy less...

JUD, there is no way there are 90 courses in Ireland that are better.  I definitely don't think it is top 25 maybe top 35/40 but 91 is a little ridiculous.  As you know, it has been discussed at great length here.  I don't necessarily mean to rehash the discussion.  But Tom Doak answered what had always been my key question with Cashen.  Could ANYONE have built and designed a world class golf course on that site.  I understood his answer to mean that the site and dunes are a little too dramatic.  It is not world class, but still very good.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I didn't see Carne on the list.  is it listed under a different name?  Whenever we talk of going to the west and northwest of Ireland, it is always on the list.  Haven't been there but heard it is special.

Carne is at no. 21 on this list, Jim... It is indeed special...

Thanks.  Didn't see it first time around.  Early here in Vegas.  Question.  Starting in Royal Portrush and working around to Carne, does the list get it right?  Anything we should add or avoid?

If you're using the list,(in the region you specify)
 Portrush Valley is highly underrated(I'd put it top 20 or higher)
Portsalon (top 10 easily)
Rosapenna Old pretty darn good-II'd reverse its' ranking with Sandy Hills
I'd also reverse the rankings of Narin and Portnoo and Donegal (sorry Sean I just don't see it )
I'd put narin and Portnoo ahead of Sligo as well

I'd also find room for Northwest GC in an itinerary in that area
It's definitely Top 100 in Ireland

I was all out of sales talk when it came to North West... Perhaps next year... You can't win them all...

Christian - Ballyliffin Old is wonderful and it deserved its climb... But it's not all that... Glashedy offers drama where the Old offers consistency... They complement each other quite well... It's probably the best 36 holer in Ireland (possibly Portrush aside)...

I adore Portsalon...

How would you divide 10 rounds over Old/Glashedy?
Me? 9-1
Pure rippling linksland over bulldozered macro-contours, hard brown fairways over irrigated sprinkler fairways. Open entrances to greens over several mandatory arial approaches.... The Glashedy is a nice course but the proximity of the Old shows exactly why the old links  courses will always beat the 'Links Nouveaux'.

Christian, as always happens I'll end up playing Devils advocate to a great course that I'd like to think I was instrumental in seeing achieve a 10 place jump...

I don't think the Old has the greatest set of greens in the world (some are excellent but very few are anything but fairly flat)... I think the micro-undulations are wonderful but are so consistent over the duration of the 18 holes that they lose some of their appeal... I think the Faldo bunkering and rework are of an extremely high standard but again are so consistent that the "Old" course has a distinctly "New" feel about it... I think the Ocean could have been used better on holes 14 to 17... The Glashedy has some real dramatics going on... I prefer the style of the Old but there isn't much between them in quality in my opinion...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony - At a rough guess, I'd say it must be over 50% of that list that are new courses or have had significant renovation or redesign in the last 25 years.... When you say opportunity missed, do you mean the courses that were built could have been better?... Or do you mean there could have been more courses of the links variety?

Ally
I count 9 or 10 new courses on virgin dunesland sites.  In the same period there’s been (I think) 3 in Scotland and to the best of my knowledge none in the rest of GB&I?   I doubt there will be 9 new links course built in virgin dunesland in the UK from now until the end of time.


I just wish there was at least one new course I honestly  felt had a chance of developing into a true top 5 contender in Ireland. I think you can guess what I feel about Waterville. Brian you almost seem  to be arguing that it’s value lies in consistency, but this is Ireland we’re talking about. I want to play courses that people love, with holes they simply have to tell their friends about!  Waterville may possibly be top 100 in the world,  but Lahinch is surely top 25? I realise this is all about subjective taste’s and what I value, another may put a lower rating on; but e.g. Waterville and TEC  just don’t seem to have the highs and lows and character I expect of great Irish courses.






PS
I do have pictures of Waterville but I’ve given up on Photobucket.   I’ve tried Flicker but that only allows about one course a month to be uploaded. Can anyone else suggest another free site I can easily upload to in order to share pictures?  I have some great shots of Dooks - another course I feel is too low.

[Sean Leary]

Brian,

What are your thoughts on Carne?

[Sean_A]

Sure, Waterville ahead of Ballybunion sounds quite dodgy, but it shouldn't be surprising as this crowd has Adare ahead of  Co. Sligo, The Island and  Enniscrone.  However, nevermind all that for now.  How in the hell is Enniscrone #14 in Ireland?  This course is as good as the best in Ireland.  I can see it as a young whipper snapper not breaking into the top 5, but not the top 10?  No, this list mentions all the right courses (how could it not when 100 are listed -  daft that is), but in a mucked up order.  

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I promised myself I wouldn't comment on these rankings, but it's so hard to resist. I haven't played enough of the courses on the list to critique the list with any authority, but as a general comment, I am bemused by the huge rise of the Old Head (+23) and the big drop by Malone (-11). What did or didn't these clubs do to warrant such as a dramatic change in their rankings?

It's nice to see Laytown & Bettystown climb 9 places. It's a wonderful links course. Tulfarris is a reasonably nice course, with some good par 4s. If Malone is at 52, Tulfarris' position is probably about right in relation to Malone.

Two courses that are probably of similar quality are Grange at No. 74 and Mullingar at No. 80. They are really nice parkland courses, but not as testing as Tulfarris. I noticed Letterkenny dropped out of the list; it came in at No. 96 in the 2010 list. I presume the Heritage came back in because they sorted out their financial diffiulties.

The folks in Castleblaney will be happy that Concra Wood gained one position. I played the course in July and the greens were wonderful. Is it better than Malone? In all honesty, I don't think it is, but it is a good solid course nevertheless, and probably deserves its position at 38.

I usually have the same thought whenever I see this list; if there are 100+ courses better than Dunfanaghy, then Ireland is surely blessed with an abundance of quality courses. But I do have a hard time believing there are 100+ courses better than Dunfanaghy.

[Garland Bayley]

The fact that Waterville's above Ballybunion Old and Lahinch should be the aha moment that gets Digest to take the resistance to scoring criteria and shove it where the sun don't shine IMO...

You go Jud!

[Mark Chaplin]

Are there enough great courses to make a top 100 or is top 50 more appropriate?

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