New Member Intro..Another guy from the Mecca of Golf…Ohio

[Bart Bradley]

Interesting that you say that Bart.  I was offered a chance to play a course on a very similar level to Pine Valley, if not the same level as Pine Valley, earlier this year.  The cost? $350.  My response?  No, thank you.

So you are claiming that you'd turn down Pine Valley, Augusta National, Cypress Point if they cost you $350...

Wow.  Okay 

[Eric Smith]

Why the  ? John's claim is indeed a fact. NGLA could have been his for the amount stated. Surely you can understand his reasoning, Bart. It simply wasn't worth it to him.

[Will Lozier]

Will/Michael/Bill,

Save the pontificating until you meet me in person. If you've an issue with my presentation, PM me, or leave a comment elsewhere. My avatar is my picture because that is where the internet is in 2011, same thing with links to personal webpages - full disclosure and transparency. There are dozens of Kyle Harrises out there. My picture and personal webpage make this corner of the web mine.

Kyle, wouldn't saturating a thread with your 18 posts (almost exactly 25% of the entire thread - and much more on word count) be closer to "pontificating"?  Having presenting such an overload of your personal opinion - to basically tell another that his is "disillusioned" - leaves me surprised that you are so offended by what you seem to think are our inappropriate criticisms.  Maybe you should have PM'd Joe to tell him "he is less likely to give decent advice on where to play" in your "welcome"?  What if one of his members asked him where to find the most interesting set of Ross greens, or simply the toughest driving course?  Value isn't a consideration in answering these questions.  To support your argument, if that member just lost his job, then perhaps Joe can consider the cost and time commitment and make a recommendation with that information in mind.  You have yet to admit that the former scenario is even possible.

Nobody has proprietorship over a thread or topic either.

You seem to think you do when suggesting our strong opinions shouldn't have been stated on this thread.

As for the concept of whether or not people agree with me or not. I don't particularly care, but I know some do who are not participating.

I'm sure a lot of people do agree with you.  It doesn't make you right.  I respect your opinion.  But when you seem to not respect others - i.e., call someone disillusioned - well, prepare to be challenged.  Having worked in the industry as an apprentice and caddie, I agree with you that value has an impact - it can be a costly game.  I never read where Joe said it didn't.  He simply feels he can judge the architecture of a course in a different way.  Having been treated so kindly by so many courses - both here and abroad - I happen to agree with him having never thought about it before.  

Furthermore, you're all focused on price. Price isn't the issue, it's paying that cost. I don't care if it's $1, $10, $100 or $1000. You're also all focused on financial output, when the time required to play the course over another (the opportunity cost) is just as much of a factor as well. You cannot play two golf courses at the same time. How price/value/quality fit into the decision is what I care about. Of course there is value to playing St. Andrews, Pebble Beach, etc. However, given a limited resource pool, you'll have to make up the marginal value between the next best option to feel satisfied with your decision. When that resource pool is skewed, the decision is skewed and therefore the opinion is also skewed.

I am not focused on price at all...that's the point.  I wouldn't be a teacher/coach if I thought in terms of value - my hourly "wage" is paltry but love what I do!  However, because of what I choose to do, my golf is in large part determined by cost.  As for time, most of my solo rounds in the UK & Europe were less than 3 hours - walking.  When longer, due to occasional high traffic, I simply had more time to absorb the atmosphere or think about the course features.  I think you are confusing what Joe said - that he can judge the architecture in a more objective way, not the experience.  Is this possible?  

There is also a regional element as well. Think of the most expensive course in your area, then think of the cheapest. If the cheapest is $10 and the most expensive is $100, is one round at the $100 course really worth 10 rounds at the $10 course? Then eliminate the extremes and start to make comparisons between other courses. (I'm just using the numbers because they're easy with which to work). I think you'll suddenly really start to analyze more than just the "value" of the course, but what actually draws you to one course over the other architecturally - or whatever other factors matter to you. What aspects of certain courses make up the difference in price to you over the others? I think this really has more value than a simple golf course ranking based solely on quality. Where Joe set me off on this discussion is that he placed it in the introduction and is the first person I know that actually made the statement that somehow this sets his analysis apart or that he wouldn't pull a punch because of the wallet factor. An average rater isn't going to engage that discussion and most industry people either don't particularly care or understand enough about the market factors that they're able to at least place their opinions in a value context naturally.

If you can't disassociate value of experience from architectural interest, how can you enjoy yourself...or play very well?  Come to think of it, I think that is all Joe said in the first place, that he can more easily focus on the latter.  Joe, correct me if I am wrong here.  And why won't the average rater engage in this discussion?  What if money is no object?

My personal experience is that there is a large difference in perception of the golf course and it's merits when you're actually having to make financial and economic decisions to play the golf course. So yes, Joe can form a perfectly valid judgment divorced from his wallet but I don't find it particularly useful because it does not reflect the actual way most of the golf market makes their decisions.

We know this is your personal experience.  Joe's is different.  As is mine.  As is others.

Cheers

[don_bartlett]

Welcome to the site Joe, it's a shame you've had to defend yourself such that you have, some do eat their young here. 

Frankly I don't comprehend how value enters into the equation when examining the architectural elements of a golf course.  If you are rating the quality vs value proposition for a best bang for your buck article, then yes it may apply, but clearly in his post it was not.  Comped rounds, whether for raters or club pros is a professional courtesy, and is set at a club mgmt level- not the pro shop. 

Kyle, do you have to pay green fees at the course you work at? 

In reality, once the first tee shot has been struck, thoughts about how much the round cost or didn't cost really are not relevant - but that's just my opinion. 

Again, when looking at the architectural merit of a course, perceived value really has no place in the discussion. 

[Kyle Harris]

Will,

I apologize for the tone regarding your strong opinions about me. I feel that those are not relevant to the thread (again, should have been saved for a PM). But you have to at least recognize that your post was very much about my aggression on this position and not that position itself. I believe those are best saved for the PM and not the thread (imagine if the Merion threads were like that!)

You don't know that I haven't PMed a participant in this thread to continue the one on one discussion (I have) or how that person felt about keeping the conversation in the open (in summary: why not?).

If I feel someone's process will make them disillusioned, my calling that as so is not disrespecting them. I may not agree with his conclusions but that has no bearing on the level of respect I have for that person.

Why haven't you addressed opportunity cost? That's the key to the whole thing. It requires comparison between at least two courses (or a whole set).

As for the member questions: Sure, Joe can answer those and I am sure someone would find it useful in context. But again, his ability to make that determination is still likely to be skewed by the method he accessed the golf courses and the choices he made.

Don,

I am excited for the time when I can pay green fees where I work, that's for sure.

[Joe Leenheer]

 Joe,

What are some of your favorite PUBLIC courses in the state of Ohio?  What are some of your favorite hidden gems?  I have mine and am willing to share after you!!

Thanks,

Chris

Chris - My current public course knowledge is a bit limited.  I was strickly a public golfer growing up, but we did not have the means to play many high-end places.  Upon return to Ohio as a professional, most of my golf is played at my home course or at a tournament (which are mainly hosted by private clubs).

My memory of all the courses played as an adolescent is very blurry.  I am however very fond of the courses I grew up playing, but would have a hard time calling them "hidden gems".  The best public course I've played recently would have to be Little Mountain Country Club (Hurdzan/Fry) in Concord.  Another Hurdzan stands out in my mind, EagleSticks in Zanesville.  My father thought very highly of the course and I remember playing it 2 or 3 times in my early teens.  Avalon Lakes (Dye) was the premier public facility in my home town hosting an LPGA event for many years.  I have played it once since my return, but would need another look to give a better assessment.       

[Michael George]

Bart:

I fully understand a golfer not wanting to pay over a certain amount for golf.  I am already dreading my kids college years and the effect it will have on my golf budget.  Simply stated, there are things more important than golf - - I think  .  Right now, I am flexible and would certainly pay a steep price for Pine Valley, Cypress Point, NGLA, Sand Hills, etc..  However, I am sure that will not always be the case.

One example - I have consistently resisted playing Shadow Creek on my Vegas trips.  I am sure that I will play it some day, but for now, I have not wanted to cough up the price - both in terms of the fee charged by the course and the money that I lose by not being at the tables 

BTW - is Shadow Creek, Cascata or Wynn worth the price?  Going out there in February and trying to decide.

 

[Will Lozier]

Bart:

I fully understand a golfer not wanting to pay over a certain amount for golf.  I am already dreading my kids college years and the effect it will have on my golf budget.  Simply stated, there are things more important than golf - - I think  .  Right now, I am flexible and would certainly pay a steep price for Pine Valley, Cypress Point, NGLA, Sand Hills, etc..  However, I am sure that will not always be the case.

One example - I have consistently resisted playing Shadow Creek on my Vegas trips.  I am sure that I will play it some day, but for now, I have not wanted to cough up the price - both in terms of the fee charged by the course and the money that I lose by not being at the tables 

BTW - is Shadow Creek, Cascata or Wynn worth the price?  Going out there in February and trying to decide.

Michael,

Having taught APStats...I'm pretty sure you are saving money by isolating yourself at Shadow Creek! 

Of course, in my one go round in Vegas, on tour with the Dead in 1995, I sat down at the blackjack table at 11PM swearing I'd only play until my $25 was lost, I ended up walking away with $125 (up $75) at 5AM!  Of course I thought I had been playing for an hour-and-a-half!  And, I can still legitimately claim I am up on Sin City!

I am trying to get a group of my brothers/buddies out to Bandon for the first time since I worked out there and am not really caught up in the $1,000's I'll need to spend to do it right - during November no less!  To me, the golf and experience are priceless.  I know Kyle will disagree!

Cheers

[Michael George]

Will:

Table minimums would never let you get away with that today.  If I sat down with $25, I would be broke in my one hand of blackjack. 

Bandon is worth every penny.  $195 for 36 a day on those courses is incredible.  Hope you get some good weather.

[Doug Sobieski]

OK, I think I can summarize what I've learned here by comparing it to another situation. Let's see if I've got this right......

- A guy who regularly picks up women in a bar and has, um... intimate relations with them is not qualified to judge which of the women were "best"
- A guy who spends a chunk of his income on hookers is qualified to make such judgement because he can judge relative "value"

It's now clear to me! If you pay for sex, you are better able to judge "beauty". Thanks, Kyle!

 

[David Royer]

Doug, to paraphase a mutual friend....you're still a?    BTW- I think you captured it very well ! Dave

[Bill McKinley]

OK, I think I can summarize what I've learned here by comparing it to another situation. Let's see if I've got this right......

- A guy who regularly picks up women in a bar and has, um... intimate relations with them is not qualified to judge which of the women were "best"
- A guy who spends a chunk of his income on hookers is qualified to make such judgement because he can judge relative "value"

It's now clear to me! If you pay for sex, you are better able to judge "beauty". Thanks, Kyle!

 

Well done Doug, well done. 

[Steve Lang]

  Hey,

It's just... "The Authoratative Internet Presence of Kyle Harris" versus authoritative...  its not easy


au·thor·i·ta·tive
 adj
\ə-ˈthär-ə-ˌtā-tiv, ȯ-, -ˈthȯr-\

Definition of AUTHORITATIVE

1

 a: having or proceeding from authority : official <authoritative church doctrines> b: clearly accurate or knowledgeable <an authoritative critique>


2

: dictatorial 2

— au·thor·i·ta·tive·lyadverb

— au·thor·i·ta·tive·nessnoun



Examples of AUTHORITATIVE

The book is an authoritative guide to the city's restaurants.
 His manner is polite but authoritative.
 She addressed the group with an authoritative voice.
 

First Known Use of AUTHORITATIVE

1605


Related to AUTHORITATIVE
Synonyms: definitive, classic, classical, magisterial


Next Word in the Dictionary: authority
Previous Word in the Dictionary: authoritarian

[Will Lozier]

Kyle,

You obviously like to hear yourself "talk" (and to look at your pic!) yet you are making very little in the way of new or fresh points while being overly wordy - trying to be your typical "authoritative internet presence" - attempting to make the same basic point in a hundred different ways without being successful.  Perhaps give it a rest and move on to another argument.  

Cheers

Damn Steve,

I wish I had caught that in my previous post!  I accidentally spelled it correctly!

Cheers

No offense Kyle...but you have to admit the irony, no?

[Kyle Harris]

Bill/Doug:

You equate beauty to sex? How vapid...

Will:

Irony is the opposite of what is expected. I've come to expect poor rhetoric here - so, no I don't see the irony.

Perhaps you meant juxtaposition?

Steve:

Example of authoritative:
"This website is the authoritative guide to Kyle Harris online."

I've learned a bit about the stock 2011 GolfClubAtlas contributor a bit from this thread.

[John Kavanaugh]

People will defend their free golf to the death, of the game that is.  This is the ole rater argument in pros clothing.  Personally, I believe any club pro should have the right to play anywhere they choose for free as the guest of the local pro, brothers in arms and all.  Also, we all know that you should take the opinion of a club pro with a grain of salt, I mean really.

[Doug Sobieski]

Bill/Doug:

You equate beauty to sex? How vapid...

Kyle:

No matter the words I used (I could have easily used "best at sex" in all of them, but I was trying to be delicate in an open forum), but I think it's an accurate analogy to what you are saying. Two guys have sex with the same girl. One guy paid for it as he does regularly. Only he can provide a valid opinion according to you. I shouldn't bother listening to the guy that got it for free.

I'll look forward to hearing how poor this analogy is!

Thanks in advance!

Doug

[Sven Nilsen]

The following quote showed up in a thread a couple of months back (I'll let you guess the author):

"1. Nobody is compelled to response to any one post.

2. Nobody has proprietorship/ownership over a thread they've started.

I've gotten into with Pat Mucci a few times over this, especially lately. You choose what you post and to what you respond. A threadjack is easily cured with an on-topic post.

It seems to me that by following my first two points above, the concept of threadjacking would take care of itself. I think, at the heart of the issue, is the concept that GolfClubAtlas has maintained a circa 2001 internet culture in a time where only the very beginnings of what we know call "Web 2.0" occured.

The concept of niche discussion groups with a community of contributors has developed into a very sophisticated culture since the inception of GolfClubAtlas and the requirements and expectations of those who wish to contribute are much higher than on this website. These sites succeed on this premise, and the membership is very dedicated to the quality of the content. The discussion boards on these sites exist to serve this purpose and the purpose of building community. In many cases, those granted membership to the site have full administrative and moderator privileges to further this end, as well. A concept that would most likely prove disastrous here. Posts on these sites may not be altered nor deleted as well, and corrections are made in subsequent responses to the thread so everything is open and accessible. The rules of conduct are made clear and violators are punished according to these by-laws.

I have given much thought to this idea lately and I feel that GolfClubAtlas has become a bit of a cultural dinosaur, much like the concept of the threadjack."

I really enjoyed the part about threadjacks being cured by on-topic posts.  I'll give it another go.

Joe -

Again, welcome to the site.  Would love to hear some stories about the life of a club professional, particularly those related to GCA and members' reticence or willingness to make changes to their course.  Have any of the courses where you've worked gone through extensive renovations/restorations during your tenure?

Sven

[Joe Leenheer]

Sven,

My club (Fairlawn CC, est 1917, William Langford) recently renovated all of the bunkers on the course with hopes of improving bunker drainage, improve aesthetics, and a bit of modernization.  Craig Schreiner (Schreiner Golf, Inc) was the architect selected as he had been used previously to redesign the 18th hole.   

Other than the 10th & 18th Hole, every bunker on the course ,as well as most of the areas surrounding the greens, were renovated.  I think Mr. Schreiner did a very fine job in keeping the feel of our classic course.  I would have loved to been involved in any way, but was not consulted  .  The process was amazing and I feel very fortunate to have seen it from beginning to end.   

This year, the club did a slight redesign on our 4th hole as the old gabion retention wall (which, IMO, was maybe the ugliest thing around) was giving way and the green was in moderate danger from erosion.  I don't know if Mr. Schreiner was consulted on the project.  It came out...OK.

The club has now turned it's focus to a driving range renovation as well as the addition of a short game facility somewhere on property. 

I hear that the first facility I worked at, Oak Hill Country Club (Donald Ross) in Fitchburg, MA has recently been renovated.  Would love to see pics. 


           

[Michael George]

Also being from Akron and knowing quite a lot of members at Fairlawn, I asked about Mr. Leenheer.  Not one person had a single negative word about him and all glowed about how good of a pro he is.  In fact, one person said he was the best pro in town.

With this feedback in hand, I have no idea how he will fit in with many of us, certainly myself included.

[Kyle Harris]

Doug:

Because women aren't consumer goods like golf courses, for starters. Nor is the quality of sex strictly tied to one night stands or a series of skill sets. I find your analogy to not only flawed, but tasteless and chauvinistic.  I think if you felt the need to be delicate, that probably should have been a red flag to not post.

That being said, your analogy may hold some merit if one considers how the quality of the experience is enhanced by the effort placed into making a connection with the golf course or partner. Also, the analogy could be useful by looking into the types of people who would both prostitute themselves and engage in prostitution and drawing inferences about the analogous people in golf, perhaps.

Sven:

With what purpose did you quote me?

[Sven Nilsen]

Joe:

Two follow-up questions:

1.  Have you seen any other Langford courses?  If so, how does Fairlawn compare?

2.  Any idea how much of Langford's original design remains?

Thanks,

Sven

[Tim Martin]

Also being from Akron and knowing quite a lot of members at Fairlawn, I asked about Mr. Leenheer.  Not one person had a single negative word about him and all glowed about how good of a pro he is.  In fact, one person said he was the best pro in town.

With this feedback in hand, I have no idea how he will fit in with many of us, certainly myself included.

Mike- I don`t think anybody is questioning whether Joe is a good pro or a good guy. The last thing I knew Ran and Ben did the vetting for GCA and Joe did fine. It`s odd that you would feel the need to pass on comments made by members of his club on his behalf. This has to be one of the most uncomfortable new member threads ever.

[Joe Leenheer]

Also being from Akron and knowing quite a lot of members at Fairlawn, I asked about Mr. Leenheer.  Not one person had a single negative word about him and all glowed about how good of a pro he is.  In fact, one person said he was the best pro in town.

With this feedback in hand, I have no idea how he will fit in with many of us, certainly myself included.

Mike- I don`t think anybody is questioning whether Joe is a good pro or a good guy. The last thing I knew Ran and Ben did the vetting for GCA and Joe did fine. It`s odd that you would feel the need to pass on comments made by members of his club on his behalf. This has to be one of the most uncomfortable new member threads ever.

Tim - Without doing research...it may be the greatest (loose use of the word) new member intro ever!  2 posts away from 100!  Right out of the gate I've gotten to know many GCA'rs and I've already played golf with one that I had never met before.  So far so good as far as I'm concerned. 

Mike - I've got the wool pulled WAY over their eyes!  Thanks for the comments.  Lets just hope those comments find the ears of any search committee members at Top 100 clubs that are in need of a new Head Pro...bueller...bueller...

Sven - I have seen one..Portage CC which is 5 minutes down the road.  Very different piece of land and really see little resemblance. Interestingly enough..Craig Schreiner also did work at Portage but I'm unsure of exactly what.  It is our rival club (as big as Michigan/Ohio St in our eyes)...so of course Fairlawn is MUCH better!   

From old arial photography and some photos (I've spent some time in the clubs attic), I do think the original design is fairly in tact.  However the original club house was lost in a fire in 1929 so I'm not sure if original documents still exist.   

Chris - this would be a great time for you to chime in (the above mentioned GCA'r who I played with yesterday at my club and has played many Langford's...although his view of the course may be skewed as he paid no greens fee... )  He did take many photo's so maybe we can persuade him in posting a photo tour.

   

[Michael George]

^{Mike- I don`t think anybody is questioning whether Joe is a good pro or a good guy. The last thing I knew Ran and Ben did the vetting for GCA and Joe did fine. It`s odd that you would feel the need to pass on comments made by members of his club on his behalf. This has to be one of the most uncomfortable new member threads ever.
[/quote]}[/sup]

Tim:

I was just trying to say some nice things about a new member to the site.  In fact, many of my best friends are members of his club (it is 1/2 mile from my office and many of us grew up playing the course).  

Just trying to be nice and cordial - honestly, is that so infrequent on this site these days as to warrant your post