New Member Intro..Another guy from the Mecca of Golf…Ohio

[Mac Plumart]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

So Kyle, what you are saying is that anybody that plays courses for free is not qualified to give advice?

PS-Hell of a way to welcome somebody new!

It is a better way than Mark Saltzman got "welcomed" and he is doing just fine.

Joe's from Ohio...people from Ohio are tough SOB's and this ain't gonna bother him. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Welcome to the group Joe. Nice to have another Pro on here

Hey Joe:

I was an apprentice from 2001-2006. PSU PGM. I am now a golf course superintendent.

Hi Kyle,

as a Superintendent don't you also get courtesy of the course at many/most places? I bet Tom D does not pay at a lot of the clubs he plays so does that mean you think he is also not qualified to comment? . I would counter and say removing the money issue makes it easier to judge the GCA of the course.

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

"What is the most you would regularly pay to play golf?" is a terrible question because that is based upon how much discretionary income a person has as well as how often "regularly" is.  For some 20 rounds a golf a year is alot, to another it's a good month.  One mans $5 bill is another mans $50.  Each person has there own interepation on value when it comes to their own money (which directly correlates to how much they have).  To one person it's a deal, to the next a rip off (I'm guessing you are normally the later). 

Joe:

This is how your market thinks. In order to understand your market and your stated agreement of your job to grow the game you first have to ask that question. I asked YOU the question because I was curious as to how YOU would answer it. Understanding the amount of discretionary income is CENTRAL to your market. How do you tailor your recommendations and your operation without first understanding the discretionary income of your market? That's bad business.

I asked you that question because I wanted to understand exactly the level of golf course you have the ability to play regularly -- by paying for the round. Of course you were able to spend the money to play Pebble Beach or would play Merion for that amount of money. You're also able to offset that cost because you likely have access to a set of golf courses where the only cost you have to spend to play them is your time. The amount of golf you can play and the kinds of courses you can choose to spend money at are skewed by the fact that your resource pool is very different from most golfers.

This is not to say you shouldn't take advantage of the privilege, but I think you also have to admit it does skew your opinion and that it much more difficult for you to relate to your market. I think the fact you found the question so absurd demonstrates that.

Would you have been able to spend that $2000 at Pebble, and get the same amount of playing satisfaction from it, if you had paid for all your previous golf through the year? Assuming you have limited means, paying for your golf would mean that you would have less rounds of golf to prepare for the round at Pebble.

Questions like these allow you the capability to ensure that the man with $5 bill can derive the same value as the man with the $50.

[Kyle Harris]

Welcome to the group Joe. Nice to have another Pro on here

Hey Joe:

I was an apprentice from 2001-2006. PSU PGM. I am now a golf course superintendent.

Hi Kyle,

as a Superintendent don't you also get courtesy of the course at many/most places? I bet Tom D does not pay at a lot of the clubs he plays so does that mean you think he is also not qualified to comment? . I would counter and say removing the money issue makes it easier to judge the GCA of the course.

Jon

Jon,

I do get the courtesy of the course often. The question is not whether or not one is qualified to comment, they are. It is whether or not the comments are in any substantially better or worse because of the lack of wallet influence. I've been comped a few times at Southern Dunes in Haines City, FL. I've also paid the $35 afternoon rate. I gladly recommend Southern Dunes to anyone for that rate because I believe it is worth that cost. If I hadn't paid the rate, how could I relate my own value judgment outside of, "I felt the golf course was good."

Golf is, and always will be, a consumer art. In order for the work of art to exist, it requires a market and economic output to preserve it. To say that these factors should have no influence over the opinion of the art is quite disillusioned.

[Jon Wiggett]

Welcome to the group Joe. Nice to have another Pro on here

Hey Joe:

I was an apprentice from 2001-2006. PSU PGM. I am now a golf course superintendent.

Hi Kyle,

as a Superintendent don't you also get courtesy of the course at many/most places? I bet Tom D does not pay at a lot of the clubs he plays so does that mean you think he is also not qualified to comment? . I would counter and say removing the money issue makes it easier to judge the GCA of the course.

Jon

Jon,

I do get the courtesy of the course often. The question is not whether or not one is qualified to comment, they are. It is whether or not the comments are in any substantially better or worse because of the lack of wallet influence. I've been comped a few times at Southern Dunes in Haines City, FL. I've also paid the $35 afternoon rate. I gladly recommend Southern Dunes to anyone for that rate because I believe it is worth that cost. If I hadn't paid the rate, how could I relate my own value judgment outside of, "I felt the golf course was good."

Golf is, and always will be, a consumer art. In order for the work of art to exist, it requires a market and economic output to preserve it. To say that these factors should have no influence over the opinion of the art is quite disillusioned.

But Kyle, following your logic then anyone with lots of money or little money would also be unable to judge. You and I also. I, however do not agree with you as whether or not I can afford a the greenfee does not affect my ability to judge its GCA merit or value for money. However as you believe it does I will understand that you will refrain from discussing such matters

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

Jon,

I think what you're missing here is that the decision making processes are also fundamentally different amongst the brackets. Let's take your example of extremes for a moment.

A golfer's ability to afford a certain level of green fee regularly is set as a baseline. Let's use $50 on golf per week. So, if the golfer desires to play a round a week, his baseline green fee is $50. This places in that golfer's pool a number of golf courses in his area and the golfer routinely selects from that pool. The golfer will likely favor a few in that pool over the others because of other factors like architecture and conditioning. These are the value judgments. However, there is also a budget limitation here, in order for the golfer to afford a green fee at $100 course, he must accept the opportunity cost of a round at the $50 course. If that $100 round is comped, that opportunity cost is not there. So yes, you will be able to access the $100 course and make judgments on it's architecture and form opinions. That's all well and good and perfectly valid - TO A POINT. But in order for others to consume that opinion they must make that cost. Remember, Joe's initial post said that he has the opportunity to form opinions in an unbiased manner. I think that's a bunch of hooey. A bias still exists, it's just one that is divorced from the economics of the sport.

As the proof of the pudding is in the eating, I think you really have to ask yourself how many times you've given a course praise but kept to yourself you'd never actually pay the freight to play it. We all have them.

As an example, I doubt very few golfers who are able to spend $100 per week on a round of golf would be able to enjoy or understand the architectural merit of a place like Walnut Lane in Philadelphia - even though they could conceivably play there 5 times for every one round elsewhere. Joe even alluded to this with his point about rather playing Merion once than someone ten times worse ten times. Joe is capable of offsetting the nine round difference with free golf elsewhere, so it's fairly easy for him to say that. If he was subject to the opportunity cost, I seriously doubt he would.

[Joe Leenheer]

John - How about..Tis better to judge a man not by what he does, but how he does it.

Mac- Love the Ohio comment!  Kyle's a super so we are bound to butt heads..I'll win him over!

Jon- Well played.  Not to mention Mr. Doak may be able to afford whatever "arbitrarily large amount of money" they are charging...so he would be even MORE qualified to judge!

Kyle- to assume I have $2k to spend on golf (remember I'm an Assistant Golf Professional) because I can play golf for free a couple times a year is...big word coming...dumb.  I spent the money because it was a special occasion and Pebble is a special place.  My resource pool is different then all golfers.  So is yours.  So is eveyones.  I DO NOT have to admit that my "priviledge" skews my perception of a golf course and its architecture as IT DOES NOT.  Don't tell me what to do.  Don't you have a bunker to rake or a fairway to mow instead of trying to devalue my opinions (as well as the opinions of all the other Professionals on this site) on GCA.         

[Joe Leenheer]

"TO A POINT. But in order for others to consume that opinion they must make that cost. Remember, Joe's initial post said that he has the opportunity to form opinions in an unbiased manner. I think that's a bunch of hooey. A bias still exists, it's just one that is divorced from the economics of the sport."

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID IN MY INTRO! I can make a judgement not baised by money...that's all!  Of course I have other biases, never said I didn't.  I like Donal Ross.  That is a bias.  But I'll tell you which Donald Ross course I like more REGARDLESS of whatever the greens fee are.   

[Pete Garvey]

Joe,

This certainly has become somewhat controversial introduction of yourself, but greetings nonetheless from a fellow PGA professional.   I’ve been a member of this site for quite sometime but rarely post.  I actually visit it often and enjoy the many opinions on golf course architecture as well as the many discussions about the golf industry in general.  I trust you will take from this site many insights that will help you daily in your profession.

I, too, have had the privilege of being able to play many of the world’s greatest courses for free or at a discount.  I don’t think I have ever considered, nor can I connect how this is an advantage as to how I see course architecture.  I draw upon my experience when commenting on design, etc.

Now, in defense of you in your discussion with Kyle, you never mentioned in your introduction that by not paying you could comment on which course to play or not play.  You stated that by not paying you could have an unbiased opinion on design.  Kyle must have misinterpreted that to also include what courses you recommend playing.  These are totally different issues.  But again, I’m not sure I follow a connection on either.

By the way, I’m another Ohio native.  I grew up in Cincinnati working first as a caddie at the Cincinnati Country Club, an 1895 Robert White design.  I then, over time, became the assistant professional there under long time pro, Bill Wood.  I left there in 1995 at the age of 30 to become the head professional at Idle Hour in Lexington where I still work.  Idle Hour is a wonderful Donald Ross design that was restored by Ron Prichard. 

I look forward to reading your contributions moving forward.

[PCCraig]

Kyle,

No offense but your rationale is hugely flawed and doesn't make much sense. Joe is qualified and welcome to give his opinions, as are you, regardless of how much you're spending on golf or what kind of deal you might be getting (or not getting) when playing a course. In the end it doesn't matter.

[jonathan_becker]

From another Ohio resident, welcome.

What are some of your favorite Ohio courses and which ones do you want to play that you haven't?

[PCCraig]

Joe,

Have you played Lakewood outside of Cleveland? Any thoughts? Any favorites in the Cleveland area?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

As an example, I doubt very few golfers who are able to spend $100 per week on a round of golf would be able to enjoy or understand the architectural merit of a place like Walnut Lane in Philadelphia - even though they could conceivably play there 5 times for every one round elsewhere. Joe even alluded to this with his point about rather playing Merion once than someone ten times worse ten times. Joe is capable of offsetting the nine round difference with free golf elsewhere, so it's fairly easy for him to say that. If he was subject to the opportunity cost, I seriously doubt he would.

Kyle,

so your theory is a chap who can afford $20 a week is going to be in the best position to judge the GCA value of Walnut Lane but if he moves job and gets a wage rise so he now can afford to spend $100 this same chap is no longer able to judge the GCA value of Walnut Lane as well as before. Would that not suggest that someone who could only afford to play if it was through courtesy would be the best judge of all

Jon

[Steve Lang]

  Joe Leenheer,

Welcome to gca.com... from an old NW/SW Ohio transplant to SE TX (20 yrs now) who plays for fun.   

I for one am sorry that you have now been initiated in the dreaded "in-your-face opinionated threadjack", I guess such happens when a treehouse turns into a Big Tent.  You know, you don't have to reply to such.. and escalate or descend into word battles/fights.

Look forward to your postings.

p.s. i lost track of the statistic, but doesn't like 2/3 rd of the US population live within like 700 miles of Mecca, OH?

[Kyle Harris]

These aren't arguments over Joe's qualifications or validity. These are arguments over the strengths and weaknesses of his approach.

To argue the former devolves into personal attacks, much like Joe has used in a light-hearted, but still present manner. Weaker arguments tend to proped up by arguments from experience (his behind the counter retort, before he knew where I was even coming from) or arguments ad hominem. I am curious to see if Joe's perspective changes as he interacts with others on this site who have a similar arrangement but still manage to work in the value factor.

Steve Lang:

I don't believe in the "thread-jack," he posted something to which I take a differing opinion. Discourse should be free flowing in my opinion. Joe is welcome to disagree or ignore as he chooses. Similar to any thread or post started by me. The fact that Joe chose to post this thought in his introductory post leads me to believe he feels it is an important enough attribute to his opinion to present. These aren't personal attacks or opinions on his character or whether or not I even like him.

Jon Wiggett:

Not really, no. It's about the habits of selecting the golf course, therefore making the judgment and how golfers decide where to play given various factors. I don't believe these factors are as removable from raw quality of the golf experience as other people (especially on here) seem to think.

I also think it somewhat waters down the experience of actually playing a high end place. Assuming the opportunity cost of playing Pebble Beach AND coming away blown away by the experience (meaning, the place was worth it) is a MUCH STRONGER opinion than one of a guy who generally plays his golf for free.

Joe Leenheer:

So, you're on a limited income of an Assistant Golf Professional. You went and spent a significant chunk of that income on Pebble Beach. Are you saying that if you had to pay for all the golf you played the year you went to Pebble Beach, you wouldn't have to sacrifice the amount of rounds played to still make the trip? I don't think that's a dumb leap at all, seems to be simple economics. You would have to choose to sacrifice some sort of expense in order to make the trip because of your more limited means.

Are you prepared for the thought that some people on this board have that all comped rounds should be taxable income?

[Tim Bert]

We all value money differently.  If I ask someone what they thought of a course, I don't really want to know if they thought it was a good value because that person probably defines value differently than I do.  I want to know what they liked and didn't like about the course, and perhaps if I trust their opinion whether or not they'd recommend someone play at the course (preferably without factoring in the money).  Then simply state how much the course costs to play and I can make my own decision about whether it would be worth it or a good value.
 

[Kyle Harris]

Tim:

Wouldn't value factor into your decision to return?

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,

you seem to think that the quality of a golfing experience is dependent on money and time. I think it has more to do with the quality of the golf courses GCA appeal and ambience. Whether I am blown away by a course has nothing to do with the cost of playing. The fact I am offered the pleasure of courtesy greenfees at many courses does not lessen my ability to judge a course for myself. I can assure you that I am comfortably your equal when it comes to this!!!

Jon

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

Wouldn't value factor into your decision to return?

Absolutely.  But my opinion of value.  Not yours or Joe's or anyone else's.  That's why I'd love to have your opinion of the course and I'd love to know the cost, but I don't want your opinion blurred by the cost.  We all have different amounts of money and even those of us with similar amounts of money choose to spend it in different ways. 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

you seem to think that the quality of a golfing experience is dependent on money and time. I think it has more to do with the quality of the golf courses GCA appeal and ambience. Whether I am blown away by a course has nothing to do with the cost of playing. The fact I am offered the pleasure of courtesy greenfees at many courses does not lessen my ability to judge a course for myself. I can assure you that I am comfortably your equal when it comes to this!!!

Jon

I am not sure I've claimed otherwise.

However, the best golf course in world would close rather quickly if it didn't have a good value to someone. The survival of the golf course is dependent on someone determining the golf course is worth the expense to maintain it - and to maintain all the other ancillary functions.

I think the fundamental place my opinion comes from is... if the golf course can't remain open - what's the point?

[Kyle Harris]

Tim:

Wouldn't value factor into your decision to return?

Absolutely.  But my opinion of value.  Not yours or Joe's or anyone else's.  That's why I'd love to have your opinion of the course and I'd love to know the cost, but I don't want your opinion blurred by the cost.  We all have different amounts of money and even those of us with similar amounts of money choose to spend it in different ways. 

I understand now.

However, if I am going to give my opinion on a place I am going to consider whether or not the place is going to have value for you. I care about your experience and would not want to you to have to make a decision to not play elsewhere for a place that won't overcome that opportunity cost.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,

you have stated and intimated more than once that golfers that play courtesy rounds are not able to judge.

I believe the quality of golfing experience has firstly to do with the GCA quality of the course played, secondly ambience/feel of the place set by your playing pertners and the clubstaff. Only then does course condition and cost enter the equation for me.

Jon

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

you have stated and intimated more than once that golfers that play courtesy rounds are not able to judge.

Jon

Where?

[Jon Wiggett]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

How about here for starters!!!!!

[Kyle Harris]

That you are able to get around one of those resources, in my opinion, makes you far more disillusioned and less likely to give decent advice on which course to play.

How about here for starters!!!!!

Just cause I think the advice isn't decent doesn't mean he is unable to give it. Please don't confuse a qualitative measure for one of ability. His system is perfectly valid - I just don't think it's terribly valuable.

That is pretty much the basis of all discussions on taste.