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Joe Melvin

Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« on: January 03, 2002, 06:44:19 PM »
Okay, most people on this site seem to have an appreciation for Coore & Crenshaw, especially their work at Sand Hills. I sit here watching the Mercedes on ESPN and wonder, "Would Sand Hills stand up to and be a good Championship Golf Course similar to Kapalua?" Obviously logistics don't count for this conversation.

A friend on mine has always said that Shinnecock is his favorite Championship course in The States, but its neighbor NGLA is his favorite golf course in the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2002, 07:05:27 PM »
Despite the differences in setting, I find a lot of similarities between the two.  Just one example is that #7 SH is like the par 5 on the back, minus the need to hit a 280 yard drive.  I think it is #15 at Kap.

With a little of the prairie wind, there is no doubt in my mind that a tournament at Sand Hills would come off every bit as well as a tournament at Kapalua.

Another similarity is the need to carry the ditch on #2 SH and #6 Kap.  Sure Hawaii looks different than Nebraska (who is getting pummelled by the way), but I think they would golf about the same for a Tour event.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2002, 04:10:40 AM »
Joe:

Haven't played Sand Hills yet  :'(, but I absolutely love
Kapalua.  Coore and Crenshaw did stellar work with a piece
of property that was difficult at best, impossible at worst.

It's a wonderful golf course and I look forward to watching
some of it on TV this weekend! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2002, 02:57:10 PM »
Joe,

One could argue which property is more ideal between Shinnecock and NGLA. However, that is distinctly not the case between Sand Hills and Kapalua with Sand Hills enjoying a gigantic advantage. Coore was stuck working with broad slopes at Kapalua and had to work around certain off-limit features (like the canyon between 5 and 6) while at Sand Hills, everything was a go - he "just" had to find the best combination(s).

The broad slopes, tradewinds, and grain make Kapalua a unique playing experience and some holes like 13, 17 and 18 are as memorable as any in golf.

The holes at Sand Hills, though equally big in scale, have more subtle features as the property enjoyed more consistent variety/smaller features (i.e. like the hump that dominates the 7th green complex) as opposed to broad slope of playing up and down the hillside at Kapalua. For that reason, Sand Hills kills Kapalua in a hole for hole competition something like 4 up because there is more going on within each hole.

Both were designed for the wind and for fast/firm conditions. Kapalua was in showcase shape in 2000 when Tiger and Els battled it out (!)  but the course has played significantly slower the past two years  :-[  and some of the magic of the design is thus hidden.  

Seeing a ball land well shy of the 7th or 18th green and take what seems like forever to roll to the back hole locations is the highlight of my year in terms of watching the PGA Tour. Alas, Kapalua isn't enjoying enough roll at the moment, both before and on the greens - remember seeing some players get with a foot or two of the 15th green in two a couple of years ago only to end up with a nasty, awkward 50 yard pitch back? I haven't seen that yet this year, which seems a shame.

Still, with firm/fast conditions, the fun to be cumulatively had from the two designs is unmatched in the past sixty years by any other architect firm. Overall, one can hardly imagine two more diverse pieces of property and to have the chance to play/study them is to appreciate the range of talent found within the firm of C&C.

Cheers,


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

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YIPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2002, 04:42:41 PM »
FYI THERE ARE 30MPH WINDS TODAY - the next three hours on ESPN may well be the most fun golf viewing of the year!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: YIPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2018, 05:12:48 PM »
Quote from: Ran Morrissett on January 05, 2002, 04:42:41 PM
FYI THERE ARE 30MPH WINDS TODAY - the next three hours on ESPN may well be the most fun golf viewing of the year!


Windy today (1/6/18) at Kapalua, and really really cold in most of the Continental USA. I thought this thread deserved a pull. Kapalua is always a favorite of the year. I have never been to Hawaii, and I am pretty sure Kapalua is not as good as it looks, but it is a great way to start off the year :)


Who is Joe Melvin ??
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2018, 06:18:20 PM »
Greens stimping at 9 make for boring TV. The course had a wet fall so it's not by choice.
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Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2018, 09:11:37 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 06, 2018, 06:18:20 PM
Greens stimping at 9 make for boring TV. The course had a wet fall so it's not by choice.


It's 10 degrees outside my window. JAKA SNARK ALERT !!
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2018, 10:37:02 PM »
Mike,


Kapalua is one of my favoite C n C courses as well.  I use to think that Capilano was the gold  standard for really big elevation changes in a routing, but after several visits I think Kapalua comes out on top of that debate.


My list of favorite holes are 6, 7 and 9 on the front side and 11,12 and 15 on the home holes.  I have played the golf course with two different winds directions, once when the winds were coming off the ocean uphill on 17 and 18.  Our group laughed all the way back to the hotel , it took us mere mortals about 10 strokes on 17 and  the same for 18, in the reverse wind direction  I reached 18 in two from the members tee. 


A great place to visit and play, when my friend Gary Planos was Director of Golf, no man was better at what he did, making every guest feel like they could call this place home.


Mahalo
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 09:37:23 AM by JC Urbina »
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jeffwarne

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Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 09:05:50 AM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 06, 2018, 06:18:20 PM
Greens stimping at 9 make for boring TV. The course had a wet fall so it's not by choice.


Actually having to make a solid strike on a putt-imagine that.....


The greens have been perfect-suddenly all shots matter and a 6 footer could be missed.Some slick ones downhil, some super slow ones uphill.
Varied Golf strokes not neurological wonder taps
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua vs Sand Hills
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2018, 09:35:21 AM »
Every year I wonder if C&C would bunker the course differently if they built it today. In general the bunkering on the course is quite boring in appearance.. Then again, maybe it wasn't always that way. I don't know.
Example below
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"
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