Re: Aggregate Course Competition WINNERS ON POST 137!!!

[Keith OHalloran]

1. Garden City: Par 4, 300
2. NGLA: PAr 4, 330
3. Augusta: Par 4, 350
4. Fisher's Island: Par 4, 400
5. Lahinch: Par 3, 155
6. Pine Valley: Par 4, 390
7. Sand Hills: Par 4, 285
8. Pebble Beach: Par 4,427
9. Maidstone:Par 4, 400

Out Par 35 Yardage 3037

10. Riviera: Par 4, 315
11. Shinnecock: Par 3 (ish) 160
12. TOC Par 4, 316
13. Westhampton CC: Par 4 312
14. Sand Hills: Par 5, 510
15. Chambers Bay: Par 3, 172
16. Bandon Dunes: Par 4, 365
17. NGLA: Par 4 360
18. TOC: Par 4 357

In Par 35
Yard 2867

Total Par 70
Yards 5904

[Ben Sims]

dumb question.

Do the holes on the aggregate course need to be the same hole number as they are on their actual course?  (e.g. can you make Pebble #7 the 17th hole on your course?)

Mark,

Yes, per the original post, I'd like to keep the holes at their respective spot.  This makes typing up your posts easier and explores everyone's puzzle-making a bit better.

However, extenuating circumstances and a well orchestrated argument might be enough to relent. 

[Mark Johnson]

dumb question.

Do the holes on the aggregate course need to be the same hole number as they are on their actual course?  (e.g. can you make Pebble #7 the 17th hole on your course?)

Mark,

Yes, per the original post, I'd like to keep the holes at their respective spot.  This makes typing up your posts easier and explores everyone's puzzle-making a bit better.

However, extenuating circumstances and a well orchestrated argument might be enough to relent. 

got it Ben...  for courses which are rerouted for tourneys, i will assume that the hole numbers wll be the ones the members play

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 1: Sand Hills, Par 5, 550 Yards

Hole 2: Oakmont CC, Par 4, 340 Yards

Hole 3: Ballyneal G&HC, Par 3, 145 Yards

Hole 4: Wine Valley GC, Par 4, 390 Yards

Hole 5: Pinehurst (No. 2), Par 4, 476 Yards

Hole 6: CC of Buffalo, Par 3, 167 Yards

Hole 7: Old Town Club, Par 4, 383 Yards

Hole 8: Sunningdale (Old), Par 3, 212 Yards

Hole 9: Maidstone Club, Par 4, 400 Yards

Out: Par 34, 3,063 Yards

Hole 10: Rock Creek Cattle Company, Par 5, 632 Yards

Hole 11: Oakland Hills CC (South), Par 4, 455 Yards

Hole 12: Dormie Club, Par 3, 118 Yards

Hole 13: Shinnecock Hills GC, Par 4, 372 Yards

Hole 14: The Prairie Club (Dunes), Par 3, 164 Yards

Hole 15: Bethpage State Park (Black) Par 4, 478 Yards

Hole 16: The Kingsley Club, Par 3, 215 Yards

Hole 17: Crystal Downs CC, Par 4, 307 Yards

Hole 18: Plainfield CC, Par 4, 385 Yards

In: Par 34, 3,126 Yards

Total: Par 68, 6,189 Yards

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D - at first I thought your post was a subtle joke. Save for the long Par 3, that scorecard reminds me of one of CB Macdonald's 'ideal golf course' formulations (something like an early suggestion for Merion, in fact, which I think came in at 6100 yards, or his plan for NGLA, that was around 6,300); and that card's almost mathematical/even mix of pars had something of the rule-bound approach that you and others usually decry.  (I, on the other hand, found a wonderful site for golf that offered and called for 8 Par 4s and only 1 Par 3 on the back nine, and I decided to honour the land and boldly went with it and broke all the rules, finding great variety in the almost infinite possibilities of great Par 4s  ).  But I realized after Ben's post that you were setting up a tough little exercise for yourself that was grounded in trying to get a realistic (but great) aggregate course.

By the way, Ben, this has already turned out to be a wonderful exercise. I've already seen so many different and interesting ways of putting together a great course (in theory, I know, since we're not actually working with real land) that's under 6500 yards.  That we don't see so many more such courses in North America may mean, to paraphrase an old line, that the flesh is willing but the spirit is weak.

Peter  

[Mark Saltzman]

Peter, what I find most amazing is how HARD a lot of these courses would be.  A 6,500 yard par 70 (or less) is not short for mere mortals.

The real question is why are all golf courses par-72?  Would there be a huge drop-off in potential audience if a course was designed as a par 68-70?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - I'm with you there, and not for any purist/theoretical reasons alone - but simply because I have found that a good old 6,500 yards (even if it's a Par 72) is more than enough of a test for me (as was Crystal Downs), and often a tougher test than the 6,800 yards on a so-so modern course, what with all their elevated tees and scenic downhill drives.

Peter

[jeffwarne]

1.Royal Aberdeen (right out of the bar!)                    409        par 4
2. PV-                                                                   368             4
3.Southampton GC NY- (all america green plateaus)     410             4
4. Shennecosset- (all world hogback green)                208            3
5.Bethpage-                                                           478             4
6.NGLA-                                                                 135             3
7.Ekwanok                                                             595            5      
8.RCD                                                                    438            4  
9.Cypress Point                                                       295            4
    out                                                                   3336         35

10.winged foot                                                        188           3
11.shinnecock                                                          154           3
12.TOC                                                                   348           4
13.ANGC                                                                 510           5    
14.Dornoch                                                              440          4
15.Friar's head                                                          460          4
16.Cypress Point                                                       230          3
17.TOC                                                                   495           4
18.TOC   (How could you finish anywhere else)             354          4
     in                                                                       3145         34
                                                                              6481       69

[Sean_A]

Bill is correct - I messed up.  

Only courses I played and have a lot of time for.  Only UK courses.  In order as found on the real course.  I tried to balance the terrain to make sense in a total routing. I tried to use a mix of famous holes and some lesser name holes, but still known at least somewhat - what is the point of grabbing totally obscure holes as very few will know how good they are?.  I wanted a short, tough, fun course, yet with quite a few breather holes where thinking can win the day over brawn.  I include a brief description including how I see the hole being played.

My fourth stab.

1.   Machrihanish 428 yard par 4 (flat) - driver/wood-8 iron  No Photo Necessary

2.   Dornoch 167 yard par 3 (raised green) - 5-6 iron  Photo Nicked From K Henderson


3.   Woking 445 yard par 4 (slightly uphill) - driver/5-8 iron


4.   St Enodoc 323 yard par 4 (steeply uphill) - driver



5.   Beau Desert 411 yard par 4 (downhill/uphill) - driver/wood-8 iron



6.   Sunningdale New 510 yard par 5  (downhill/uphill) -  driver/wood Photos Nicked From SWAG



7.   Pennard 351 yard par 4  humpty/(slightly downhill) - driver/8-wedge



8.   Swinley Forest 146 yard par 3 (humpty/flatish) - 5 iron-8 iron Photo Nicked From Tucky


9.   Beau Desert 260 yard par 4 (slightly uphill) - driver/wedge


10.   Cavendish 422 yard par 4 (flat) - driver/wood-7 iron



11.   TOC 174 yard par 3  (flat) - 5-6 iron


12.   Kington 176 yard par 3  (humpty/flat) - wood-6 iron


13.   Prestwick 460 yard par 4  (flat) - driver/wood Photo Nicked From SPDB


14.   Stoneham 481 yard par 5 (slightly downhill) - driver/wood


15.   North Berwick 191 yard par 3 (slightly uphill/obscured) - wood-6 iron Photos Nicked From K Henderson



16.   Aberdovey 281 yard par 4 (humpty/slightly) - driver/wedge



17.   Brora 438 yard par 4  (downhill/uphill) - driver/wood-5 iron Photo Nicked From The AA


18.   Kington (The Greatest Finishing Hole In Golf) 285 yard par 4  (humpty/steeply downhill) - driver/wedge



OUT 3041 yards par 35
IN 2908 yards par 34

TOTAL 5949 par 69

[Joe_Tucholski]

1   Old Course - 376   4
2   Pine Valley - 368   4
3   Pasatiempo - 214   3
4   Bethpage - 530   5
5   Pinehurst - 475   4
6   NGLA - 141   3
7   Ballyneal - 335   4
8   Troon - 123   3
9   Cypress Point - 292   4
10   Riviera - 315   4
11   Pacific Dunes - 150   3
12   Birkdale - 183   3
13   Pacific Dunes - 445   4
14   Secession - 381   4
15   Kidnappers - 655   5
16   Merion - 428   4
17   Old Course - 495   4
18   Pebble - 543   5

   Out   2854   34
   In   3595   36
   Total   6449   70

[Garland Bayley]

I had formulated the idea to try to fill out this course from a post a year ago. The club designations are approach shot clubs for bombers.

I planned to do this before Tom posted his prototype.

...
What would you think of a course like this

130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555 = 6165
W    9I    7I   5I    3I    3W 1W  1/2 1/2  LW SW GW 9I  8I    6I    4I    2I    3W

as perhaps a par 70 (or dare I say it? 69) for you?

I almost got it done, but couldn't come up with a 255 yard hole especially when it got down to needing it for the 11th hole (with Joe Tucholski's help I have put the 245 yard par 3 11th at LACC North), so I just plugged in one of my 11th hole possibilities. Therefore, I now came out like my prototype, 3051 (34) + 3083 (35) = 6136 (69)

1 Royal County Down 540 5 (counted as the 530 yard entry)
2 Pine Valley 365 4 (counted as the 355 yard entry)
3 Sand Hills 195 3 (counted as the 205 year entry)
4 Royal Melbourne West 475 4 (counted as the 480 yard entry)
5 Merion 418 4 (counted as the 430 yard entry)
6 Lahinch Dell 155 3 (counted as the (you guessed it) 155 yard entry)
7 Old MacDonald Ocean 375 4 (counted as the 380 yard entry)
8 Royal Troon Postage Stamp 123 3 (counted as the 130 yard entry)
9 Pacific Dunes 405 4 (counted as the (you guessed it) 405 yard entry)
10 Riviera 315 4 (Downhill, counted as the 305 entry)
11 Los Angeles CC North 245 3 (counted as the 255 yard entry)
12 Barnbougle Dunes 278 4 (counted as the 280 yard entry)
13 Augusta National 510 5 (counted as the 505 yard entry)
14 Royal Dornoch Foxy 459 4 (counted as the 455 yard entry)
15 North Berwick Redan 190 3 (counted as the 180 yard entry)
16 Cypress Point 230 3 (counted as the (you guessed it) 230 yard entry)
17 Oakmont 313 4 (Uphill, counted as the 330 yard entry)
18 Pebble Beach 543 5( counted as the 555 yard entry)

EDIT: I stuck Chambers Bay #12 in late last night. I thought I remembered it maxing out at 281 (it plays significantly uphill) from our discussion with Jay Blasi at the GCA preview event there. I checked a score card, and found there is an additional tee I didn't remember. Yardages have been updated.

EDIT2: I replaced my 11th with the par 3 11th at LACC North

EDIT2a: I found Royal St. Georges 11th is 240 yards, but since Ben OK'd it I will leave Joe's suggestion.

EDIT3: I found a hole that is truly in the 180 yard range, and am replacing the 12th as Chambers Bay with the 12th at Barnbougle Dunes. Is see Tom did not put a hole of this length in his prototype, so it's mine, all mine! A hole that one poster called his favorite short par 4 in all of Australia! I think I'm done now.

[Simon Holt]

I drew this out on a banana skin for the shape of the coastline.....and it seems to work.  Cool thread Ben.

1 Machrihanish        Par 4         428  (great tee shot to start the day)
2 Royal Aberdeen     Par 5         507  (good chance for a bird with 2 accurate shots)
3 NGLA                  Par 4         426  (probably my favourite hole in America)
4 RCD                    Par 3         219  (back downhill after the Alps hole, even better view than the Redan at National!)
5 Portrush (Dunluce)Par 4         379  (cracking risk and reward drive and a wonderful greensite)
6 Royal Dornoch      Par 3         161  (after all the views a small target to sharpen the focus)
7 Pine Valley           Par 5         573  (longest hole on 'the course' something for the big boys and a real 3 shotter for most)
8 RCD                    Par 4         364  (just love this hole and it fits on the banana skin)
9 Renaissance          Par 3         138  (short 3 with a wild green and great bunkering, nice backdrop)

10 Maidstone           Par 4         362 (tough hole for its length, really like the elevated green and approach)
11 Gullane No. 1      Par 4         479 (good long, downhill 4 with another killer backdrop)
12 NGLA                 Par 4         435  (I just love the green here)
13 TOC                   Par 4         376  (you may be on a score but I like what it asks of you at this point in the round)
14 Maidstone           Par 3         129  (great short 3 as a breather before the finish)
15 North Berwick      Par 3         178  (couldn't not have this, I can see it out of my window!)
16 Pasatiempo          Par 4         365  (love the green)
17 Royal Dornoch     Par 4         390  (some find it fiddly but I like the strategy)
18 Pebble Beach       Par 5         543  (all world finish and a last chance to open the shoulders)

Par 70  6448 yds

I resisted putting some of my favourite holes as I wanted it to work in 'real life' in terms of coastlines....well, as much as possible.  I especially wanted the 4th hole at Kilspindie but I couldn't not have the 4th at RCD for my longer 3.

While a lot of my '300' holes are around the same number I think the variation in elevation and wind direction makes all of those holes play differently to the number on the card on any given day.  I was not too precious about having 300-320-340 etc.

[Michael George]

Deleted

[Joe_Tucholski]

I almost got it done, but couldn't come up with a 255 yard hole especially when it got down to needing it for the 11th hole

11 at LACC is close at 245...although their renovation booklet indicates they have a set of tees that bring it to 300 as an opptional par 4...so not sure how that plays into this game where the rules stated the distance at the tips must be used.

[Garland Bayley]

I almost got it done, but couldn't come up with a 255 yard hole especially when it got down to needing it for the 11th hole

11 at LACC is close at 245...although their renovation booklet indicates they have a set of tees that bring it to 300 as an opptional par 4...so not sure how that plays into this game where the rules stated the distance at the tips must be used.

Thanks Joe,

If it is an optional par 4, I would think it still would be an optional par 3 too. I was actually looking for a par 3 that would make the par 69. I have come to favor two sets of tees, with par modification for better players in my view of how to handle technology. So the plus handicappers might be playing my prototype course at par 68, whereas a high handicapper like myself would be playing it as par 72. I understand that this philosophy requires courses on a great piece of land as it is very difficult to bunker a course for this type of variation of players from the same tees.

[Mike Nuzzo]

PeterP
Here are the yardages of Wolf Point from the tees(?) I play
I say tees(?) because there are only a couple formal tees

6501-ish yds par 71:
We even have 2 holes in Tom's no mans land

139
168
192
220
271
282
313
341
359
384
399
423
432
444
485
521
541
584

I wrote an essay about the above for Paul Daly's next GAV

[Simon Holt]

I drew this out on a banana skin for the shape of the coastline.....and it seems to work.  Cool thread Ben.

1 Machrihanish        Par 4         428  (great tee shot to start the day)
2 Royal Aberdeen     Par 5         507  (good chance for a bird with 2 accurate shots)
3 NGLA                  Par 4         426  (probably my favourite hole in America)
4 RCD                    Par 3         219  (back downhill after the Alps hole, even better view than the Redan at National!)
5 Portrush (Dunluce)Par 4         379  (cracking risk and reward drive and a wonderful greensite)
6 Royal Dornoch      Par 3         161  (after all the views a small target to sharpen the focus)
7 Pine Valley           Par 5         573  (longest hole on 'the course' something for the big boys and a real 3 shotter for most)
8 RCD                    Par 4         364  (just love this hole and it fits on the banana skin)
9 Renaissance          Par 3         138  (short 3 with a wild green and great bunkering, nice backdrop)

10 Maidstone           Par 4         362 (tough hole for its length, really like the elevated green and approach)
11 Gullane No. 1      Par 4         479 (good long, downhill 4 with another killer backdrop)
12 NGLA                 Par 4         435  (I just love the green here)
13 TOC                   Par 4         376  (you may be on a score but I like what it asks of you at this point in the round)
14 Maidstone           Par 3         129  (great short 3 as a breather before the finish)
15 North Berwick      Par 3         178  (couldn't not have this, I can see it out of my window!)
16 Pasatiempo          Par 4         365  (love the green)
17 Royal Dornoch     Par 4         390  (some find it fiddly but I like the strategy)
18 Pebble Beach       Par 5         543  (all world finish and a last chance to open the shoulders)

Par 70  6448 yds

I resisted putting some of my favourite holes as I wanted it to work in 'real life' in terms of coastlines....well, as much as possible.  I especially wanted the 4th hole at Kilspindie but I couldn't not have the 4th at RCD for my longer 3.

While a lot of my '300' holes are around the same number I think the variation in elevation and wind direction makes all of those holes play differently to the number on the card on any given day.  I was not too precious about having 300-320-340 etc.

Ah.  Just read the from the tips bit.  I had gone from the tees most people would play.  Back to the drawing board.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - thanks much for that.  It is very interesting to see, laid out like that.  

I went back and grabbed my proposed course to see how the numbers would work out, i.e. without pars and in order of length:

145 yards
155 yards
180 yards
185 yards
300 yards
315 yards
315 yards
350 yards
355 yards
355 yards
390 yards
390 yards
420 yards
440 yards
455 yards
455 yards
550 yards
550 yards

Hmm - a lot of duplications there (more than i realized).  Perhaps I could say that the holes of matching length always go in the opposite (wind) direction

 

[Jud_T]

6501-ish yds par 71:

Sorry Mike,  you'll have to convince the owner to move the blocks up 2.01 inches on each hole to technically qualify...

[Garland Bayley]

6501-ish yds par 71:

Sorry Mike,  you'll have to convince the owner to move the blocks up 2.01 inches on each hole to technically qualify...

Sorry Jud,

Go back and read the rules again. That won't take par 71 down to 70. Now if he were to change the 271 to 270, he could perhaps claim it went from a par 4 to par 3 making par 70.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben,

Are you allowed to take suggestions for modifications to your course as long as you finalize the course before Friday? E.g., Joe's finding the 11th at LACC for my course?

[Scott Szabo]

Hole 1:  Sand Hills - 550 Yards - Par 5
Hole 2:  Prairie Dunes - 160 Yards - Par 3
Hole 3:  NGLA - 430 Yards - Par 4
Hole 4:  Pacific Dunes - 465 Yards - Par 4
Hole 5:  Crystal Downs - 355 Yards - Par 4
Hole 6:  Royal Melbourne West - 430 Yards - Par 4
Hole 7:  Sand Hills - 285 Yards - Par 4
Hole 8:  Royal Troon - 125 Yards - Par 3
Hole 9:  Yale - 215 Yards - Par 3

3,015 Yards - Par 34

Hole 10:  Riviera - 315 Yards - Par 4
Hole 11:  Fisher's Island - 165 Yards - Par 3
Hole 12:  St. Andrews - 320 Yards - Par 4
Hole 13:  Pine Valley - 450 Yards - Par 4
Hole 14:  Engineer's - 95 Yards - Par 3
Hole 15:  Cypress Point - 135 Yards - Par 3
Hole 16:  Merion - 430 Yards - Par 4
Hole 17:  Oakmont - 315 Yards - Par 4
Hole 18:  Pebble Beach - 540 Yards - Par 5

2,765 Yards - Par 34

5,780 Yards - Par 68

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

Are you allowed to take suggestions for modifications to your course as long as you finalize the course before Friday? E.g., Joe's finding the 11th at LACC for my course?

Garland,

Good point!  Yes, you are. As long as it is finalizaed by next Friday at 2359 hours.  For ease of use, it would be better just to modify your original post. 

Michael George has already goofed this up by posting twice and our judge isn't very TECHnically inclined.  He might grade your first input if you don't revise all posts. 

[Ed Brzezowski]

1  Cherry Hills    4   389
2 Oakmont       4  340
3  Wannamoisett   3  135
4  Lahinch        5   475
5  Merion East  4   504
6  Morris County  4  319
7  Shinnecock  3   185
8  Pebble Beach   4  420
9 Yale    3   235

out  34  3002

10 Riveria  4  315
11 TPC Sawgrass   5  558
12 Pine Valley   4  337
13  Augusta national   5   530
14  Ballybunion old   3  133
15 NGLA   4  417
16 Cypress Point  3  230
17 TOC  4  495
18  Pine Valley  4  483

in  36  3498

total  70  6500

[Jason Topp]

Ed

What is Morris County and please describe the hole.