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Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2011, 11:12:22 PM »
Jim
That's true, but with so many solid news reports contradicting that story was there anyone who took that isolated story seriously? I didn't.

Of the numerous stories (Wilson, Bunker, Travers, Giles, Uzell, Ford, Wind and Shelley) claiming he found the site hunting and/or on horseback I believe the earliest is May 1914.

Did Uzzell have multiple articles about Crump, PV and hunting?  The one from American Golfer in 1927 is the hunting preserve inheritance myth.  Surely you should delete that one from your list of 8.

Which one was the first in May 1914? What does it say?  Can you point us to where we might find it?

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2011, 11:25:17 PM »
Bryan
Why weren't you asking these questions before you went on this wild goose chase? It was made very clear prior to this that the great majority of contemporaneous reports had Crump finding the site while hunting....with Uzell or without Uzell....and Tilly was only one who told the great 1910 train story. 

In May 1914, Joe Bunker wrote in the Philadlephia Inquirer that Crump first discovered the site on horseback.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2011, 11:30:47 PM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly. 

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight. 

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Thanks Bill.  We can declare you an honorary Canuck if you like.  All you need to do is tell us you know who Don Cherry is.  ;)

Singer/golfer Don Cherry?  I was a fan!

Bill,

Yikes, no!  Don Cherry is an iconic hockey commentator and former coach of the Boston Bruins, and an apologist for fighting in hockey.  Your honorary Canucklehead status is withdrawn - at least until next summer if you attend the KP in Jenkins' backyard.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2011, 11:47:28 PM »
As a little sidelight regarding Sumner Station and Virginia Ireland, I found the following article regarding the honeymoon of her daughter published in the Spokane Washington Spokesman Review on August 28, 1925.

Seems Virginia was a pretty big land owner - 3200 acres - in Pine Valley, complete with mansion, fairy princess daughter, a private golf links, and its own little flag station on the RR.  So, now we know - the RR station wasn't for sand and gravel, it was for the fairy princess mansion and estate.  Sumner is probably Virginia Ireland's maiden name.  Oh, and it seems George Sumner Ireland was her son. 






Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2011, 11:54:10 PM »

Herewith a second deed from Pine Valley, this one the original purchase of the 184 acre property by Lumberton Sand Company from Joseph Katz.

Happy studying, although you may develop some eye strain.  Good luck on deciphering it.  I hate these long hand deeds.









Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2011, 12:11:50 AM »

In 1917, Pine Valley Golf Club made a number of purchases.  The first, on February 2, 1917, was again from Virginia E. Ireland, now a single woman, and abutted the property that Pine Valley had bought from her in 1915. The property contained 26.36 acres and is denoted by the yellow lines on the following map.  Pine Valley paid the usual $1 and other valuable considerations.

The property was granted and conveyed to Virginia E. Ireland by the widow, Anna L. Sumner.  Anna L. Sumner was likely Virginia’s mother.




Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2011, 12:38:27 AM »
Pat,

You're slowly, but most certainly, disqualifying yourself from deserving to be taken even the slightest bit seriously.
Bryan posted one of the deeds in reply #26.

That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

You have a very odd understanding of what "requested" means.  And, certainly an exaggerated sense of your importance in my decisions.


Bryan, the FACT is that you did NOT publish the deed until AFTER I requested same.  It is indeed a time sequence fact.  It is also a fact devoid of any meaning.

As to your decisions, you begged me to forward you the "Stick Routing", which I did UNCONDITIONALLY.  Begged?!?!?!?  ROTFLMAO.  (If you don't understand what that means, ask your kids).  David published the 3 part topo on behalf of a friend (who I assume was Tommy).  I received the other picture of the topo from you, after you asked me where you might get a picture of the topo.  Where did you get that one from? 

I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer previously.

Did you find/discover the deed independent of anyone else's assistance/direction/ or was the deed discovered by other sources ?  There is no discovery required.  They are publicly available documents.  All you need to do is search the deed books.

If it was other sources, did they request that you not publish the documents on GCA.com ?  How do you know I wasn't going to post them?

Is it possible that other unpublished, relevant source documentation remains at large ?  Is this more TEP paranoia?  I didn't get the deeds from TEP.  I'd guess that there is other relevant source documentation at large, but I'm not privy to it.  I started this thread as a way to bring to light the PV deeds.  When I'm finished, everything I have by way of deeds will be posted.

Thanks


................................................


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2011, 12:42:26 AM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly. 

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight. 

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Thanks Bill.  We can declare you an honorary Canuck if you like.  All you need to do is tell us you know who Don Cherry is.  ;)

Singer/golfer Don Cherry?  I was a fan!

Bill,

Yikes, no!  Don Cherry is an iconic hockey commentator and former coach of the Boston Bruins, and an apologist for fighting in hockey.  Your honorary Canucklehead status is withdrawn - at least until next summer if you attend the KP in Jenkins' backyard.



You mean not (gasp!!) DonCherry.us?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2011, 12:52:23 AM »
If Mr. Mucci is going to use the term "imbicile," he should at the very least spell it correctly.  

Great research, Bryan.   I just wish I were a Canadian tonight.  

And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

Thanks Bill.  We can declare you an honorary Canuck if you like.  All you need to do is tell us you know who Don Cherry is.  ;)

Singer/golfer Don Cherry?  I was a fan!

Bill,

Yikes, no!  Don Cherry is an iconic hockey commentator and former coach of the Boston Bruins, and an apologist for fighting in hockey.  Your honorary Canucklehead status is withdrawn - at least until next summer if you attend the KP in Jenkins' backyard.



You mean not (gasp!!) DonCherry.us?

Uh, No!

The real Canadian Grapes Cherry, a fine dresser of a man.  Image is everything.



JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2011, 01:07:49 PM »
Tom,

My question about the Shelly picture was of the one in the woods hunting on what would become Pine Valley. I think it's bogus to even suggest the person who took that picture in 1909 would somehow document it to make clear this was on the "future site" of Pine Valley Golf Club. You list Shelly as one of 8, he wasn't around at the time of the purchase so he's not a credible source as to the original discovery of the site. Considering Virginia Ireland seems to be giving Crump as much land as possible for $1 it probably makes sense that his hunting excursions were on her property if at all and her property was not part of the original purchase which contains the entire golf course.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2011, 01:10:04 PM »
Tom,

It's hardly news 2 years after the fact...

I think your issue with Tillinghast's story is the sensationalization of it, is that fair? If he had simply said Crump first recognized the value of this site from the distant view of the hills and valleys from the train you wouldn't protest so much I suspect. Do you think the Shelly picture/caption was on the grounds that eventually became the 184 acre property Crump built the golf course on?

Jim,

Since you're so familiar with the land at PV, would you describe where you can see hills and valleys from the train tracks running parallel to PV ?

Would you cite the location of these hills and valleys by relating them to hole numbers.

For example, would you tell us what current holes had valleys in them that were visible from the train which was heading East.



Pat,

I'll be happy to do this as soon as you do two things;
1) agree that the 1927 article saying Crump owned this land (300 acres) before turning it into a golf course
2) tell me why you limited the discovery to trains heading East

Thanks.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2011, 09:02:30 PM »


That was ONLY after I requested that he do so in reply # 16.

Please tell me that you understand that #16 comes before #26.



And continued to bitch about him not having posted anything yet in #31...continuing deeper into the disqualification...

Your problem is that the sleep deprevation is impeding your reading comprehension.
Go back and reread reply # 31.
But, please, do so after you've had a good night's sleep.


Pat,

Are you willing to agree that the ultimate discovery/creation of 13 - 15 had nothing to do with buying that land later in the process?
What on earth are you talking about ?
I cited my premise regarding the discovery/creation of # 13.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2011, 09:07:03 PM »
In addition to your manufactured claim that the view of the lake was the reason you suggested, earlier in that thread, that it may well have been so late in the process because they didn't own the land yet...that's the one I'd like you to agree was misguided. Oh, and the 300 acre story...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2011, 10:14:26 PM »

In addition to your manufactured claim that the view of the lake was the reason you suggested, earlier in that thread, that it may well have been so late in the process because they didn't own the land yet...that's the one I'd like you to agree was misguided. Oh, and the 300 acre story...


Jim, it's not a manufactured claim, Tillinghast clearly stated that Crump discovered the 13th hole due to the views afforded from the upper plateau.
A plateau that had been previously hidden from the mortal eye due to the dense woods and thick underbrush.

The date of the discovery was cited previously.
If I recall correctly, it was around 1915.

Perhaps you're not familiar with Coore's & Crenshaw's discovery of several holes at Sand Hills, PRIOR to Dick Youngscap owning the land.

You need to get more sleep, or, have someone read these posts for you.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2011, 10:48:51 PM »
Tom,

My question about the Shelly picture was of the one in the woods hunting on what would become Pine Valley. I think it's bogus to even suggest the person who took that picture in 1909 would somehow document it to make clear this was on the "future site" of Pine Valley Golf Club. You list Shelly as one of 8, he wasn't around at the time of the purchase so he's not a credible source as to the original discovery of the site. Considering Virginia Ireland seems to be giving Crump as much land as possible for $1 it probably makes sense that his hunting excursions were on her property if at all and her property was not part of the original purchase which contains the entire golf course.

Jim
Shelly became a member of PVGC in 1928. He would have been exposed to Baker, Perrin, Carr and many other old timers who knew what happened. His understanding is consistent with the others; he is a credible source.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 10:55:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2011, 02:34:47 AM »
David,

Re the train station - the stick routing topo and the Cold plan (just above) both mark where the station is, alongside the beginning of the 1st fairway.  Is that not sufficient proof for you of their location? 

Bryan, this is an odd question given your recent position about the nonexistence of the "POND" and the "DAM" despite that each is marked on the same two maps.  Has your understanding of the topo map changed?

I noticed today in looking at the 1925 J.E. Ford article the following quotes regarding Crump and Perrin's initial visit to the property: "Perrin saw .......... a feeble sluggish stream"  and "As Crump looked about he visioned a broad valley with a lake at the bottom mirroring the evergreens above."  I guess you would have us believe that between November and March they cleared the valley, dammed the sluggish stream, and created the "lake".  Notwithstanding that Hazard reported in April that: "The fifth is the second of the four one-shot holes on the course. A very pronounced depression, over the creek must be carried with a short iron to the green in the hill side beyond.  Yup, if there was a pond on the topo, it must have been there, despite two reports to the contrary.

The station may always have been in that exact same location, I am trying to nail down a definite location for earlier than 1913-1914 because I recall reading somewhere that the location of the station was moved at some early point.   Also, it looks like there was a setup for loading and unloading RR cars down by the 17th tee as late as the 1930's, and so I wonder if this might have been the remnants of an earlier station. 

Regarding the picture with the low slung setup for loading and unloading RR cars by the 17th tee, could you tell us on which side of the tracks this setup was? 

Did you notice that the RR Right of Way briefly widens, but that that the widened portion does not line up with the station on those maps?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2011, 03:20:09 AM »
Tom,

Joe Bunker said, vis-a-vis Pine Valley that:  "George A. Crump a few years ago while taking a horseback trip near Clementon, New Jersey, was so impressed with a sandy tract that he invited a number of Philadelphians to go on an exploring trip with him.   They found a tract of virgin forest made up chiefly of scrub oak and pine and then and there decided that it contained a splendid golf course."

He was taking a "horseback trip".  Do you suppose he rode 2 or 3 hours from Merchantville to Pine Valley for the horseback trip?  Or did he take the train and bring his horse?  Or, could he have been a guest of Virginia Ireland, whose daughter was an equestrian. Perhaps he was on a horse borrowed from the Irelands and was riding their 3200 acres.  If so, maybe he arrived for the visit at the Sumner Station flag stop that served the Ireland estate (see article above).  Maybe he noticed the rolling terrain across the tracks that was owned by the Lumberton Sand Company.  Maybe he decided to trespass and have his picture taken there.  Maybe he told Tillinghast about the property when they rode past on the train to AC.  Maybe the two or three stories can all coexist.

J.E. Ford says that Crump retired to his home in Merchantville after selling the hotel.  "His only interests then were golf and hunting."  "His rambles afield with his gun and dogs often took Crump thru the fastness of pine and oak below Clementon."  Ford later states that Perrin and Crump "journeyed one morning late in the summer of 1912 to Sumner station on the Atlantic City division of the Reading Railroad.   They plunged into the wilderness west of the railroad tracks" (that would be Lumberton land).  Hard to believe that he often took his gun and dogs and trespassed on Lumberton's land prior to taking Perrin there.  Seems more likely he was a guest of the Irelands and rode horses and hunted on their 3200 acres.  Perhaps he noticed the property on the other side of the tracks from the train station.  Perhaps he asked permission from  Lumberton before he and Perrin plunged into the wilderness for their picnic.

Many years later Shelley wrote of Crump: "He accepted the assignment of finding a suitable site.  It was not long after that he wrote to his friends:  "I think I have landed on something pretty fine.  It is 14 miles below Camden, at a stop called Sumner, on the Reading R.R. to Atlantic City – a sandy soil, with rolling ground, among the Pines."

Shelley then goes on to say: "Some reporting by the press at the time mentioned Crump had seen the property from the train.  But there is proof that in fact he knew the grounds by tramping through them with his gun and dogs while hunting for small game with which the property was well blessed.  A photo of Crump resting amid the pines in 1909 is testimony of that fact.  It could be that, in tramping through the grounds, he saw more of the trees and shrubs than the forest and perhaps only realized the rolling nature and the possibilities when he saw it at a greater distance from the train.  In any case, he found a great location for the building of a golf course, no matter how." 

His "tramping through them with his gun and dogs" sounds somewhat derivative of Ford's "rambles afield with his gun and dogs".  His only proof of the hunting story being the Crump 1909 photo.  But then, that could have been taken on Ireland's property, or it could have been taken while he trespassed on the Lumberton property, or maybe when he and Perrin had their picnic on the 6th tee, and the date of the photo is wrong.

None of this seems to me to be definitive.  Rather, it seems to me that the train, horseback riding and hunting stories could all coexist.


Tom MacWood

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Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2011, 02:55:47 PM »
Alan Wilson wrote he discovered it on a shooting trip; Jerome Travers said GAC told him he first discovered the site hunting; Tom Uzell said Crump's father bought the site as a hunting preserve and that was how GAC became familiar with it; Ellsworth Giles said Crump with dog and gun roamed and explored the property; HW Wind said GAC concluded it was the perfect site while hunting; Shelly said he became familiar with site while hunting small game; Ford said he knew the site through his hunting experiences; Bunker said he discovered the site on horseback. Do you see a pattern?

I don't think it matters how he and horse got to the site.

There are numerous problems with Tilly's 1910 train story:

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912.
4. Crump's 1912 letter stating he just found the site.
5. The majority claim the site was found hunting.  

Ray Cross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2011, 03:01:23 PM »
So the 38 bedroom Ireland house must have been close to the Sumner Station stop....any records known about that or the golf course mentioned that was on the Ireland 3000+ acre estate....any chance that one/some of those holes were already in the acrege purchased for PV  ?    Just askin'
Thanks

But, still fasinating research....thanks again!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2011, 04:55:46 PM »
Bryan,

Don't forget that the White Horse Pike was a major thoroughfare from the Camden area through Clementon.

Trolly service from Camden to Clementon was also available.

Riding the train or riding on horseback weren't the only convenient modes of transportation from Camden/Merchantville to Clementon.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2011, 01:29:05 AM »
Bryan,

Don't forget that the White Horse Pike was a major thoroughfare from the Camden area through Clementon.  Yes, I know.  It must have been very busy with horse and carriage in 1910-12.



Trolly service from Camden to Clementon was also available.  Yes, it was.  That's an interesting thought - Crump with gun and dogs on the trolley with the Clementon Park crowd.





Riding the train or riding on horseback weren't the only convenient modes of transportation from Camden/Merchantville to Clementon.  You do know that Merchantville and Camden weren't the same place in 1910, nor was Clementon the same place as the 184 acres that became PV?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2011, 01:35:59 AM »
So the 38 bedroom Ireland house must have been close to the Sumner Station stop....any records known about that or the golf course mentioned that was on the Ireland 3000+ acre estate....any chance that one/some of those holes were already in the acrege purchased for PV  ?    Just askin'
Thanks

But, still fasinating research....thanks again!

I assume the house was near the station.  I think the flag stop was there for the Ireland's primarily.  I don't have any records to prove where the house was.  I'd guess that the golf links mentioned was in fact Pine Valley - it was called a private club.  No, there's no chance that there were holes on the core PV property.  Ireland didn't own it.  There Lumberton/PV property was generally described as jungle -like.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2011, 01:57:26 AM »
Tom,

I have posted the quotes from Uzzell, Shelley and Joe Bunker above.  Could you post the articles or transcripts for the others so that we can see what exactly they said.

The deeds prove that Uzzell was mistaken.  You really should drop him from your list.

Shelley allowed that it was possible that Crump did first recognize its potential from the train.  Can you not make the same allowance?

Multiple people have asked you which article first claimed that he found the site while hunting.  Why haven't you answered?  Is it possible that the others are derivative of the first?

Re point 5, I didn't realize that this was a win by majority.  Is that good research?

Re point 4, if Crump said he just found it in 1912, how does that square with the claims that he found it while hunting when he was younger or on property he inherited from his father?  Was his discovery the result of one hunting trip in 1912?



Alan Wilson wrote he discovered it on a shooting trip; Jerome Travers said GAC told him he first discovered the site hunting; Tom Uzell said Crump's father bought the site as a hunting preserve and that was how GAC became familiar with it; Ellsworth Giles said Crump with dog and gun roamed and explored the property; HW Wind said GAC concluded it was the perfect site while hunting; Shelly said he became familiar with site while hunting small game; Ford said he knew the site through his hunting experiences; Bunker said he discovered the site on horseback. Do you see a pattern?

I don't think it matters how he and horse got to the site.

There are numerous problems with Tilly's 1910 train story:

1. Crump was not playing golf in 1910.
2. Tilly was playing little or no golf in 1910 because of his involvement at Shawnee.
3. Crump considered two other sites prior to settling on the current site in 1912.
4. Crump's 1912 letter stating he just found the site.
5. The majority claim the site was found hunting.  


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2011, 02:01:52 AM »
Patrick,

I did notice that you had commented in Ed Oden's routing plans thread about the Colt PV plan.  You do realize that the Colt plan is not the same thing as the "stick routing".  And, I didn't get it from you.  I don't want to clutter up Ed's fine thread.  Maybe you should correct your post there.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:04:06 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Pine Valley Deeds
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2011, 10:59:32 AM »
Pat,

I'll be happy to do this as soon as you do two things;
1) agree that the 1927 article saying Crump owned this land (300 acres) before turning it into a golf course

The article appears to be incorrect in terms of outright ownership.
However, it does not preclude that Crump could have leased the land


2) tell me why you limited the discovery to trains heading East

You have got to start getting more sleep.
Because AWT indicated that they were on their way to play golf in A.C., ergo, they were heading East.

Now, tell us from what vantage point on the approximately 4,000 of track footage paralleling PV, could GAC see hills and valleys ?


Thanks.
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