The Pine Valley Deeds

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

You seriouslly misquoted what I said many months ago.  I never and I mean NEVER said I could tell the land changed just as I turned the corner into PV.  I said I saw it as approaching the area.  I understand that its a limited region of sand hills, but never said it started or ended right outside the gate.  At least you only called me misguided, instead of calling me a liar this time.  Thanks for that, I think.......

After all this, here is my new working theory on this:

Tillie mentions in one of the articles that it had been 3 years (probably back to Dec ’09) when he saw it from the train.  He also wrote that Crump made several trips on his own before taking his friends out, which is probably what was reported by other letters.  And we know he wrote back from England for area maps, perhaps confirming in his own mind he needed sandy links land to emulate those courses.

How is this for a scenario –

 - Crump saw it from the train first in Winter 1909-10,
 - Crump then walked, hunted (maybe doing both at the same time, or maybe using the hunting story as a "cover" to maintain the secret?) 
 - He considered the other sites because his group thought they liked Atlantic Cit
 - Or, as a ruse to keep the price down if he decided to buy PV from the sand company. 

So, he first saw it from a train, and then became familiar with it on horseback and while hunting, but with an eye towards building a golf course?

What part of the facts does that not fit as a working theory?  I am open to criticism, as its an off hand thought.

[DMoriarty]

Nice find.  It didn't pop up when I was searching.  The deed describes the property as being bounded by four streets - Glenwood, Arlington, Cedar and Maple.  Glenwood, Maple and Cedar seem to be NLE in that vicinity.  Arlington intersects the Clementon to Berlin Road just northeast of PV.  It is about 13 miles from Camden and it is on a promontory.  Seems more likely that St Albans was here rather than near Pine Hill.  Also seems likely that this is where the property was located.  Not sure why Crump would want to buy property there, unless he was looking to build a house there.  There wasn't a whole lot of room to spare to build a house on the initial 184 acre purchase.

That could be it, but three of those street names are so common I wouldn't speculate one way or another.  At least in 1919 there was Cedar Lane in Clementon, as well as a Walnut lane in "Clementon Heights" (another early name for Pine Hill.)  And there was a Walnut Avenue just south and east of the course in what is called "Albion" (Alban?)  There is even a Glenwood Dr. off of Blackwood Road heading west from Clementon.

Plus, it looks to me like Crump was purchasing a "block" of land in what was a development or proposed development and that these streets may not have even been in existence as of yet, and if an entire "block" was being sold, it may never have come into existence.  Probably we are dealing with something the size of a city block, but the only way to know for certain would be to follow the directions to the other deeds.   
___________________________________________________________________

Regarding your quotes recent quotes from Ford and Wilson, I don't think the distinction you are trying to establish makes any real difference.  Taken together, they indicate he not only discovered the nature of the land while hunting, but that he knew the characteristics of the land as well as the greens at his own course.   Yet you argue that perhaps it hadn't occurred to him that this would make fine land for golf?    Possible, but rather beside the issue of when he first became familiar with this land.   And regarding that issue, the hunting story and the RR story are mutually exclusive.  If he was familiar with the land from hunting, then he didn't discover it from a passing train.

That said, I think it entirely possible that he was familiar with the land prior to realizing it was ideal for golf, and that the epiphany wasn't really finding the land, but a change in Crump's understanding of what made for a great golf course.   Reportedly, prior to 1910 the golf in this region was pretty dismal.   Perhaps the site of the courses he saw abroad altered his understandings of what constituted a good course, and brought this particular area into play in his mind.  (I recall that a few different early reports mention a possible alternative site on farmland that perhaps looked more suited to a golf course according to the sensibilities of the time.)
__________________________________________________

As for the creek vs. the pond, I remain unconvinced.  Stopping up a slow meandering creek would have been simple and accessing a supply of water would have been an imperative.   This wasn't hoover dam. 

_______________________________________________________

Word of caution about that old Topo.  It was based on a survey which began in the early 1880's or before, and I am not sure that the RR was even there then, and I don't think it is in the exact right place on the map.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

In that same post I missed you asked about what I have called the low slung RR shed.  Here is a 1938 oblique from the Hagley collection showing the shed and the extra track.  The 16th green and 17th tee are visible in the lower center of the photo.



Here it is again from 1931 from the other direction.   Note that the building had been expanded between 1931 and 1938.  Note also that while the bed for this small loading/unloading spur was visible in 1931, the part of the tracks connecting to main line is not there at this point.  If I had to guess, I'd guess that this shed was used intermittenly over the years depending upon the needs of the land owner. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

What you just describes is the definition of a theory...and until you produce that inscription it is nothng more than blind speculation...good luck!

Jim, you asked a specific. albeit open ended, question.
I answered your question.
You just don't like the answer.

As to the landforms and visibility from the tracks...I'll stick with what I've said. I disagree with what Jeff said and am not on that hook.
The next time you visit PV, walk the tracks all the way down and past the 14th green (East) and past the 2nd tee (west) and then tell me what you think.

Why are you asking about what's visible behind a ridge?

Because it's been alleged that you could see hills and valleys from the tracks, when in fact your field of vision is blocked by the ridge, preventing any view south, beyond that ridge.  So, where are the hills and valleys that were visible from the tracks ?

All i've said is that the view from the tracks would be more than enough to intrigue Crump to have a closer look.

Then you should have no problem pinpoint from what vantage point on the tracks Crump could have enjoyed that view.
Please define/describe that location/s

You're debating this as though I said he could see and site specific golf holes from the train...this is your method, I know, just don't fool yourself into thinking you're accomplishing anything in this conversation.

NO, that's not what I said.
Please reread what I stated.
Everyone has conceded that the area near 17 tee, 16 green and 14 green was a swamp.
Would you call that ideal land for golf ?

To be clear, my whole argument about the landform being a striking figure was its relationship to the tracks...I said something similar to...'in that 60 miles stretch of track this is the only hill nearly this size and therefore it would jump out in his eye'...

But, if the landform in conjunction with the dense forestation of pines and oaks and underbrush so thick it was described as "jungle like" by numerous contemporary sources, blocks the view, what could you see ?

And, not just see by staring, but see by virtue of a chance "glimpse" which is how AWT described it.

It's pure fantasy, Shelly and numerous sources have told you so, the physical properties of the land confirm same, but, you want to continue to believe the myth.

Well continue being a good boy and maybe Santa will bring you something nice this year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Good to see that you've changed your theory again.
You may recall that previously, you had it reversed, with Crump discovering the land vis a vis hunting and then he pointed it out to AWT on the train.  Now your claiming he saw this great site in a momentary chance "glimpse" from a moving east bound train and then quickly ran to discover that site on foot/horseback.

I'm curious as to your next version

If he saw anything, from what vantage point do you think that "glimpse" occured ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

What a great photo.

I've often wished that PV would be restored to its earlier form, be it 1926 or 1938.

The bunkering is dramatic and breathtaking.

Notice how dense the woods to the south of the RR Tracks are.
Unfortunately, the camera flattens out the steep hill immediately adjacent to the tracks.

[JESII]

Pat,

Your "answer" that you say I don't like is not an answer at all...it's a pure cold guess with no foundation in reality.

Do yourself a favor and take a guess how far it is from that shed to the area southeast of the 14th green were the creek trickles to...I just did and it's 300 yards but I'd be curious how many meters that is...

The early article referenced damming 20 acres of swamp. This entire area was swamp-like which would have meant few if any trees. We know from today's course that the end of the swamp would have been 100 to 200 yards from the tracks. The swamp itself wouldn't have looked like ideal golf terrain but the abrupt ridge and large slopes visible beyond would have been striking.

[archie_struthers]

     

What a great picture indeed!   Looking at the  17th hole, many might overlook the right side of  the fairway, which no longer exists.  very very interesting indeed ....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Your "answer" that you say I don't like is not an answer at all...it's a pure cold guess with no foundation in reality.

Jim, you keep missing the point.
You asked, what inscription on the photo would be indisputable evidence, AND, I TOLD YOU WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE.
And, I"m correct.  You just don't get it.

Do yourself a favor and take a guess how far it is from that shed to the area southeast of the 14th green were the creek trickles to...I just did and it's 300 yards but I'd be curious how many meters that is...

Those weren't the reference points you cited.
You cited north of the 17th tee to north of the 14th green.
Please, stop moving the reference points

The early article referenced damming 20 acres of swamp. This entire area was swamp-like which would have meant few if any trees. We know from today's course that the end of the swamp would have been 100 to 200 yards from the tracks.
The swamp itself wouldn't have looked like ideal golf terrain[/b]
but the abrupt ridge and large slopes visible beyond would have been striking.

You're forgetting, they were covered in a dense forest with jungle like undergrowth.

And, since when is an almost vertical slope ideal land for golf ?

I've seen people try to force things, but, you're being ridiculous.

Take a nap before you post

[Patrick_Mucci]

 

What a great picture indeed!   Looking at the  17th hole, many might overlook the right side of  the fairway, which no longer exists.  very very interesting indeed ....

Archie,

As you know, I've indicated that Pine Valley should be perennially # 1.

It is an incredibly unique golf course.

But, I also feel that benign and perhaps intentional neglect have allowed aspects of the course to deteriorate/diminish and the 1938 photo of # 17 would be Exhibit "A"

Look at the absolute purity of that green and its surrounds.

Does it get better than that ?

Add in the dual fairway and the hole is beyond remarkable.

I recall TEPaul indicating that the right side fairway was abandoned early on because they couldn't get hoses to it, but, after seeing this picture, I doubt that was the reason the right side fairway disappeared.  If they figured out how to maintain it, from approximately 1915 to 1938, I guarantee that they could figure out how to maintain it post 1938.  Rather than hose length, I wonder if WWII wasn't the reason behind its disappearance.

I've also advocated, from day one, to have the pimple or spine returned to the 18th green, a large bland green where the pimple/spine would be an incredible enhancement and in keeping with, not only Crump's intent, but what he actually designed and built.

I would love to see more photos from the Hagley collection, I'll bet that they're stunning.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, Archie, and others . . .

Here is a link to the Pine Valley photos from the Hagley Collection, which is really a terrific resource.

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1=Pine+Valley+Golf&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=%2Fp268001uw

Just click on the image you want to see, and then click on the image itself to zoom in.  Navigate around the image by clicking on the thumbnail image in the upper right.

The images I posted above are from Nos. 11 and 12 on the linked list.

[JESII]

Pat,

You're right...I did ask that and forgot the follow up question, which is;

Why on earth would Crump write that? How would he know then that it would become Pine Valley? Or, how would he remember at least 3 years later that he was on this specific 184 acre plot? You call the train window story a myth, but as I said 20+ pages ago, this is an even less realistic possibility.


As to the stretch of track, I did not say north of those two points (17th tee and 14th green). I said near. That train shed is clearly at, or very slightly above the golf course grade. I stood on the 17th tee 6 weeks ago (which is obviously built up) and looked at the train tracks and the tracks are very slightly higher. The rest of the run down past the 14th green is ~10 feet below the tracks with the exception of a small mound about halfway that rises to slightly above the level of the tracks. The only thing blocking a full view of this valley would be trees...


is it your position that the entire property, including the 20 acres of swamp referenced in an early account, were covered with jungle like trees and undergrowth? I think that's an indefensible position due to your added belief that Crump was intimately familiar with the land from hunting and/or horseback riding.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You're right...I did ask that and forgot the follow up question, which is;

Why on earth would Crump write that? How would he know then that it would become Pine Valley? Or, how would he remember at least 3 years later that he was on this specific 184 acre plot? You call the train window story a myth, but as I said 20+ pages ago, this is an even less realistic possibility.

Jim, I'm sure that we've all done it.  Rumaging through photos, some taken years prior, and decided to label them.
It's a common practice.
And, knowing that site as we do, I'm sure that Crump had the same degree of familiarity, and more.
As a kid, I remember playing in the expansive woods near my home.
We had "skunk's pond", "Split Rock" and other various sites we named.
We knew those woods, and they were exponentially larger than 184 acres, like the back of our hand.

You must have been confined to playgrounds when you were a kid growning up.
Those of us who were lucky enough to be able to play in the woods, were intimately familiar with them.


As to the stretch of track, I did not say north of those two points (17th tee and 14th green). I said near.

Yes, but we were referencing the tracks and the nearest points are north of the two locations you mentioned.

That train shed is clearly at, or very slightly above the golf course grade. I stood on the 17th tee 6 weeks ago (which is obviously built up) and looked at the train tracks and the tracks are very slightly higher.

Jim, I shot it with a red laser and the tracks were slightly lower.
Now, being as old as I am, perhaps my hand wasn't that steady, but when you rest it on a fixed item, it's pretty reliable.

The rest of the run down past the 14th green is ~10 feet below the tracks with the exception of a small mound about halfway that rises to slightly above the level of the tracks. The only thing blocking a full view of this valley would be trees...

I've stated that from the begining.
It's a very narrow opening.
Please go to google earth which will allow you to see how much land is between the tracks and the pond/swamp.
That land was covered in trees and thick undergrowth.

is it your position that the entire property, including the 20 acres of swamp referenced in an early account, were covered with jungle like trees and undergrowth?

I've stated my position over and over and over again.
If you don't know it by now, please, go back and reread it.

I think that's an indefensible position due to your added belief that Crump was intimately familiar with the land from hunting and/or horseback riding.
You're free to think what you want.
You're problem is that you're laboring under a false set of facts, putting forth what you want to believe, versus what I've stated.
Please go back and reread my position.
But, first, take a nap as you're obviously exhausted to the point that your memory and/or reading comprehension skills have been compromised.

Note, they get worse as you get older !

[JESII]

The point is that the 184 acres is a needle in the haystack of south jersey pinelands. The picture itself certainly doesn't reveal anything noteworthy about its location. The Ireland Family owned 3200 acres right across the tracks from Pine Valley. 184 acres is about 6% of even that.


As to the track reference adjacent to 14 and 17, I was not talking about the nearest part of track to those two features as they are now. I was using the landforms which rise above the tracks as the East and West boundaries of the potential field of view. Just Southeast of the 14th green (maybe 50 yards tops) and just Northwest of the 17th tee (about where that shed is in David's picture) provides a 300 yard field of view. Paul Turner posted a picture early in the other thread making it clear that this distance you claim was between the tracks and the swamp filled with impenetrable trees and undergrowth is a pure fabrication. The base of the train embankment went right to the swamps edge.


It's funny to me that you walked a half mile of train track through the woods with a red laser level, a camera and likely a distance measuring device in an effort to prove what the trees looked like 100 years ago while Bryan is acquiring, deciphering, plotting and posting the deeds of the property and Macwood sees Bryan as the one on a wild goose chase...

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I understand what you are saying about the photo, but don't understand why the same logic doesn't apply equally if not moreso with the captions on the other photos.   At least there is some leeway in the location of the hunting photo, whereas the other captions proclaim to be a very specific location yet that location doesn't seem to be a very good match with the photos themselves.

I don't think that this area would have been  a "needle in a haystack" if Crump commonly hunted south of Clementon.  After a bit of wooded buffer, much of the land across the tracks seems to have already been farmland.  Likewise for the land to the east. And Clementon was to the west, and Clementon Heights to the South.   So in hunting terms there was not a huge amount of wild land south of Clementon.  

Where do you think the photo came from?   Is it possible it came from a scrapbook of early photos of PV kept by Crump or someone else?    Do you suppose that Shelly had no reason whatsoever to believe that the hunting photo was from the general area?

Again, I put very little weight in the value of the photo in figuring all this out, but I do wonder on what other information Shelly was relying in addition to the photo.

[Bryan Izatt]

On October 31, 1916 the Pine Valley Golf Club acquired approximately 160 acres from John O. Wilson et ux & al for the usual $1 and other valuable considerations.  The et ux & al included Wilson's wife and also the Hamilton Corporation. This property abutted the southwest edge of the Lumberton property that Crump bought from the Lumberton Sand Company in 1912.  In fact, it is exactly the same property that Jonas Bowman's executors excluded from the deed when they sold the 184.31 acres to the Lumberton Sand Company in 1904.  The property is outlined in light purple in the map below.

This particular tract seems to have had a checkered history between 1904 when Bowman owned it and 1916 when Pine Valley bought it. 

John Wilson came into the property on December 31, 1913 from Harry D. LeCato and his wife.  LeCato appears to have been a developer in the area and presumably acquired the property from Bowman's estate.  LeCato subsequently went bankrupt and the trustee in bankruptcy transferred his interests in any lands that LeCato owned to Stephen Robinson on July 29, 1915. LeCato and Robinson, on the same date, conveyed all their rights and interests to the Hamilton Corporation.  The Hamilton Corporation is included in the Wilson to Pine Valley deed to relinquish its interest in this property to Pine Valley. While LeCato was seized of the property he had divided it into lots according to a Map of McKinley Heights and had conveyed some lots to Anna Staude.  Those lots were conveyed to John O Wilson in this deed.  A checkered history indeed.  Perhaps Pine Valley obtained the land very cheaply as it was coming from a bankruptcy and apparently a failed subdivision development.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Please don't let me deter you from another one of your wild goose chases...I enjoy them thoroughly....I normally don't know what their purpose is, and this latest is no exception, certainly not an attempt to discover the truth about anything relating to golf architecture history, but don't mind me.

Why don't you discuss with Patrick; he seems to think he has a very clear idea of what my "agenda" is.  

My wild goose chase, as you call it, was simply to review your claims about 8 sources confirming the hunting storyline, prompted by finding that one of them (Uzzell) was incorrect.  As a historian, I'm not sure why you would ridicule someone for trying to understand the source of your claims.  Should I just accept verbatim your claims and conclusions, without question?  Is it normal historian practice to make it difficult for others to find and read their source material?  

The two most popular stories come from very reliable sources: the train window story comes from AW Tillinghast and John Arthur Brown, the hunting story from Jerome Travers and Alan Wilson. I suspect they are both true.

In your opinion piece you mention Tillinghast and John A. Brown as sources of the train story.  What did Brown say?  When?  Where?  I guess you've recanted on the last sentence.

In regards to the photograph of Crump hunting in the Shelly book, there is a similar photo of Crump hunting in the woods in the most recent history. Crump has different close (sic) on in this photo so it is clearly a different hunting trip.

I don't suppose that you could post the two photos.  I know there is one in your opinion piece, and that it has been posted multiple times, and also appears in the GAP profile.  To which most recent history are you referring, that has the other picture of Crump hunting?  Can you post it?

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I don't know why you addressed the quote below to me.  You were arguing this point with Jim.  But, ........

Can you specifically cite and quote the source that shows that Crump knew of the site before 1910?

Are you arguing that he didn't see the site FIRST from the train?

Are you arguing that he couldn't have seen the site at all from the train?  Not even the fact that there were rolling hills there?

Are you arguing that Crump did not tell this story to Tillinghast in 1913?

Here are two versions of it - one from Hazard/Tillinghast in February 1913 from American Golfer:

"To come quickly to the point this
district is to have another course and
I anticipate that it will be one of which
we will be proud. To Mr. George A.
Crump we must give the credit of the
discovery for he found it as he chanced
to glance through the window of a
rapidly moving train. This particular
tract was different from the rather
monotonous south Jersey flat country,
yet there it was with beautiful undulations
and hillocks. Mr. Crump's first
thought was the connection of this
tract with golf. None but an old
golfer would have done so for as it is
it looks very unlike a golf course.
Scrub trees and underbrush cover it
and the white sand shows everywhere.
It is just as it was three years ago
when Mr. Crump first saw it, but since
then it has been purchased and plans
are being made to convert it into what
I believe will be the best course in this
district."

And another by Tillinghast, under his own name, from the May 1933 Golf Illustrated:

"I have told of our winter habit of taking train from Camden
for the hour's run to North-field. George Crump invariably
was of the party and on several occasions
I observed him looking intently
from the train window as we
passed through a section about
twenty miles out. As a matter of
fact his attention had been attracted
by a freakish bit of country in South
Jersey, freakish because it was so
totally different from the monotonous
flat lands of those parts. At first
he said nothing to any one, but
quietly, as was his wont in everything
he did. he visited the tract and
took option on one hundred and
eighty acres of gently-hilled, pine-covered,
sandy land—the tract which
he had so intently studied from the
passing trains.

Then he told a few of us of a plan,
which he had in mind. This was in
1912, and at that time the Philadelphia
district really possessed no
course of true championship requirements.

And, thirdly from the 1913 American Cricketer,

Bryan,

What you and others not familiar with the property don't understand is how the topography at Pine Valley thwarts views of the property from an eastbound train, and that's without taking into consideration the dense forestation of pines and oaks, which you recently cited, along with the jungle like undergrowth.

The landforms block the views to the south from the tracks.

I explained, to Jim Sullivan, the view angles presented by a train traveling east, and how they prevent any "glimpse" of any land deemed ideal for golf.

As I've stated, repetitively, Crump was previously familiar with the land, and while traveling with AWT on the train, probably mentioned, as they passed the site he had already identified/selected, that this was the area he intended to site his golf course.

To insist that he FIRST discovered the property on a chance, two second "glimpse" from a passing eastbound train is pure folly and physically impossible to improbable.

The only reason you cling to this myth is because you want to disagree with me, and I understand that, but the physical properties of the land don't support the myth.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

On the POND and DAM thing, herewith a quote from Tom's opinion piece, quoting in turn an article on Pine Valley from the January 1914 Philadelphia Inquirer.

‘The first blow of the ax was struck there last February; in the ten months since $40,000 has been spent

That seems to narrow down the start of construction.  Of course they could have started the dam before February and before clearing the ravine of trees and undergrowth.  But, it seems to me a very tight timeline to build it between February and March.  I wonder what the weather was like in those two months, that year?

As to the size of the dam, I don't know.  Maybe Pat and Jim could give their disparate views on whether it is little or big.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I think the problem with characterizing the structure of the dam is that our point of reference is in modern times, from 1964 to present.  I couldn't tell you, personally, what was there from 1914 to 1964, and as much as I remember about my first round in 1964, I can assure you that I didn't focus on the dam, so my recollection of the dam in 1964 is unreliable.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dam went through a series of iterations.
If you view the aerials from Historicaerials.com you get a sense that perhaps the pond/stream changed character over the years

I would imagine that the roadway leading to the clubhouse and the dam are structurally and/or chronologically related to one another.

Conceptually and professionally, I have difficult accepting that a licensed surveyor or civil engineer would render a survey based upon future concepts.  I can see a "plan" being based on future concepts, but, not a survey.

If, by all descriptions, the stream was tiny, which several on the property are, I can't see the need for a large dam.

The only reason I can see for a large dam is that the powers that be either wanted to make it a mixed use water feature, or they envisioned a larger hazard for the hole.  I seem to recall seeing a plan with a swimming pool behind the clubhouse.   Perhaps an enlarged pond was intended to replace it.  But, that's just a guess.

[Tom MacWood]

Bryan
Is there any evidence of Crump playing golf in 1910?

If Crump had his eureka moment on the train in 1910 why did he consider two other sites in 1912 prior to the present site?

Why did he write his friends in 1912 telling him he thought he had come across something special if he had already found it two years earlier?

Why are there eight sources who claim he found the site hunting and only one who said he found it looking out a train window?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I don't know why you addressed the quote below to me.  You were arguing this point with Jim.  But, ........

Can you specifically cite and quote the source that shows that Crump knew of the site before 1910?

Can you cite a source that says he didn't

Are you arguing that he didn't see the site FIRST from the train?

Yes

Are you arguing that he couldn't have seen the site at all from the train?  

No

Not even the fact that there were rolling hills there?

What rolling hillS ?
Would you identify them

Are you arguing that Crump did not tell this story to Tillinghast in 1913?

I think Crump, while riding the train, pointed out the approximate site he had previously discovered

Here are two versions of it - one from Hazard/Tillinghast in February 1913 from American Golfer:

"To come quickly to the point this
district is to have another course and
I anticipate that it will be one of which
we will be proud. To Mr. George A.
Crump we must give the credit of the
discovery for he found it as he chanced
to glance through the window of a
rapidly moving train. This particular
tract was different from the rather
monotonous south Jersey flat country,
yet there it was with beautiful undulations
and hillocks. Mr. Crump's first
thought was the connection of this
tract with golf. None but an old
golfer would have done so for as it is
it looks very unlike a golf course.
Scrub trees and underbrush cover it
and the white sand shows everywhere.
It is just as it was three years ago
when Mr. Crump first saw it, but since
then it has been purchased and plans
are being made to convert it into what
I believe will be the best course in this
district."

I couldn't be happier regarding the above post.
You may recall that I stated that it was a speeding train.
Mike Cirba argued that it was proceeding at a crawl or stopped.
I cited the average speed of the express train to AC.
At 60 mph, 88 feet per second, he would have passed the entire property at PV in 45 seconds.
And, most of the property is blocked by intervening land forms, preventing any view south.
You may recall that I had David Moriarty post pictures of the steep hill running along # 17 bordering the tracks.
Add to that the dense forestation and thick undergrowth,
So, the opening, east of the intervening hill on # 17 might be 20 yards wide, 60 feet, and the view from the 17th tee is of the swamp,
So, he whizzed by that opening in 3/4 of a second, and that's the "chance glimpse" he got ?   ?   ?

We know that the landform adjacent to the 1st fairway/tee and 18th green is also above the tracks, impeding his view.
We've seen early photos, showing how dense that forest was.


And you're going to tell me, in a 3/4 second glance at a swamp, that he had his "viola" moment and saw land ideal for golf ?

And another by Tillinghast, under his own name, from the May 1933 Golf Illustrated:

20 to 22 years after the alleged incident ?  ?  ?

"I have told of our winter habit of taking train from Camden
for the hour's run to North-field. George Crump invariably
was of the party and on several occasions
I observed him looking intently
from the train window as we
passed through a section about
twenty miles out. As a matter of
fact his attention had been attracted
by a freakish bit of country in South
Jersey, freakish because it was so
totally different from the monotonous
flat lands of those parts. At first
he said nothing to any one, but
quietly, as was his wont in everything
he did. he visited the tract and
took option on one hundred and
eighty acres of gently-hilled, pine-covered,
sandy land—the tract which
he had so intently studied from the
passing trains.

At 88 feet per second, with no defining landmarks, you and AWT are trying to tell us that he "studied the land intently" in all of 45 seconds,
With MOST of the land blocked by intervening landforms, dense trees and underbrush.
So, perhaps he had 10 seconds divide between the land near the 17th tee and the land near the road fronting # 18 green.
And, the open area nearest the tracks by # 17 was a swamp, hardly the ideal land for golf.
AWT himself says that the land was hidden from the mortal eye due to dense forest and thick underbrush.
But now we're to believe that he had an unobstructed view of this wilderness from a speeding train ?  ?  ?

And, AWT description of "gently hilled" land is pure rubbish.
First we're told that the land so steep horses can't get up it and now it's gently hilled, rolling hills
What nonsense.
If you were familiar with the land you'd know how steep the hill ascending to # 14 tee and # 13 fairway is.
Gentle is not a word I'd use to describe it, but, if you're willing to bend the truth in order to believe in myths and fairytales ................

You and AWT are also telling us, that despite living about 13 miles away, Crump had never seen this land in the 39 years he lived just down the road from it ?  
That he never hunted it, despite reports to the contrary.
That in his entire life up to 1910, all 39 years, that he had NEVER ridden a train to Atlantic City before 1910 when he was 39 ?  ?  ?
And you believe that crap ?

Then he told a few of us of a plan,
which he had in mind. This was in
1912, and at that time the Philadelphia
district really possessed no
course of true championship requirements.

How long do you suppose he had that plan in mind ?
2 years ?  5 years ?

Once again, it's nice to get confirmation that the train averaged about 60 mph, which gave him next to no time to see anything, especially when his view was obstructed by landforms, dense forest and thick underbrush.

And, thirdly from the 1913 American Cricketer,

Bryan, read this article more carefully, it indicates that he's taken this train on numerous occassions previously.
And, he describes the site as scrub wooded land, hilly and rolling.
Tell me, where can you see ROLLING land from the tracks ?  ?  ?

Now look at this photo, imagine Crump in a train doint 60 mph, 88 feet per second.
Tell me, as he's traveling east, (right to left) (bottom to top) when he would become aware that he was approaching Pine Valley.
Tell us, what he could see through those woods and the intervening landform blocking his view to the south.


And remember, the Pine Valley property looked just like the property to the immediate west (right) of Pine Valley

AWT got it wrong.  

Bryan,

What you and others not familiar with the property don't understand is how the topography at Pine Valley thwarts views of the property from an eastbound train, and that's without taking into consideration the dense forestation of pines and oaks, which you recently cited, along with the jungle like undergrowth.

The landforms block the views to the south from the tracks.

I explained, to Jim Sullivan, the view angles presented by a train traveling east, and how they prevent any "glimpse" of any land deemed ideal for golf.

As I've stated, repetitively, Crump was previously familiar with the land, and while traveling with AWT on the train, probably mentioned, as they passed the site he had already identified/selected, that this was the area he intended to site his golf course.

To insist that he FIRST discovered the property on a chance, two second "glimpse" from a passing eastbound train is pure folly and physically impossible to improbable.

The only reason you cling to this myth is because you want to disagree with me, and I understand that, but the physical properties of the land don't support the myth.

[JESII]

Jim,

I understand what you are saying about the photo, but don't understand why the same logic doesn't apply equally if not moreso with the captions on the other photos.   At least there is some leeway in the location of the hunting photo, whereas the other captions proclaim to be a very specific location yet that location doesn't seem to be a very good match with the photos themselves.

I don't think that this area would have been  a "needle in a haystack" if Crump commonly hunted south of Clementon.  After a bit of wooded buffer, much of the land across the tracks seems to have already been farmland.  Likewise for the land to the east. And Clementon was to the west, and Clementon Heights to the South.   So in hunting terms there was not a huge amount of wild land south of Clementon.  

Where do you think the photo came from?   Is it possible it came from a scrapbook of early photos of PV kept by Crump or someone else?    Do you suppose that Shelly had no reason whatsoever to believe that the hunting photo was from the general area?

Again, I put very little weight in the value of the photo in figuring all this out, but I do wonder on what other information Shelly was relying in addition to the photo.

David,

The picture of Crump in the woods could be anywhere on the planet...the one I've seen anyway. The picture's range is about 20 square feet of woods...and at the time he purchased the 184 acres in 1912 he likely would have been in dozens of similar places hiking or hunting in the three years since the picture was taken. The only way it could be identified accurately is if he did in fact have one of these 'licenses' or 'profits' you spoke of earlier...maybe he did, but that possibility does not make Tillkinghast's story a myth and Shelly's words fact as Pat has argued. His single position is in fact that the possibility of an inscription on the back making it indisputable and if that ever shows up I'll be happy to agree but let's not throw Tillinghast under the bus based on that distant possibility...


The picture in the Brown and Shelly books show an expansive landform which very closely resembles exactly what is said in the caption. That being said, as you know, I've held out the slight possibility that it is some other place on the property but would need much better evidence than we've seen so far. Your 'low-slung building' might do something as it was clearly there 20 years later and I can't see why the club would build it along the tracks out there although they did retain the priveledge of selling up to $100 of sand per year for some reason...


In other words, the Brown picture makes sense to me based on what's there, even if you can't make sense of the elevations.





Pat,

You're doing great! Keep it up!!!

What did you decide about the Sumner station? I forget? Was it ever used? Or only at night time on west bound trains??? Remind me...

[DMoriarty]

Regarding the various photos I guess what it comes down to for me is whether or not Shelly and or Brown were much better situated than we are in analyzing these photos.   
  - If Brown/Shelly were following descriptions on the back, or descriptions in some sort of contemporaneously created scrapbook, or some other contemporaneous description of the photos, then it would be difficult to doubt the captions. 
  - But if Brown/Shelly are simply trying to figure out the photos same as we are, then we have good reason to doubt all the captions to the extent they don't seem to match what is being described. 

You seem to be half and half on this.  You want to throw out the hunting photo(s) as if there was no possibility that contemporaneous information informed the later captions.  Yet you seem to be giving great weight to the captions on the other photos, as if you are assuming that Brown and Shelly must have had information informing for the captions.   

You say the other captions make sense to you, but had you not had the captions in front of you, would you come up with those interpretations on your own?   

You say that the elevations don't make sense to me.   I'd say it is more accurate to say that the don't make any sense whatsoever.   No one has been able to come close to explaining how they could possibly have been able to see so much of the distant ridge over the intervening ridge.   It just doesn't work unless they were in an air balloon or something.

[JESII]

The elevations work if you allow for a margin of error...which you refuse to do. Pine Valley didn't shave 20 feet off the top of the plateau yet the topo and Google Earth are about 20 feet in disagreement, no? How big is the area Google Earth uses to average out the numbers for its elevations?



As to the pictures...the clearing phase of a golf course is a specific event and photographs of it would usually be catalogued. How would the picture of Crump in the woods be catalogued? Unless he did have a license/profit I can't imagine labeling it with the specificity required to put him on this finite 184 acres of privately owned land...especially when he knew the family across the street that owned a couple thousand acres.

I am speculating that the Crump's knew the Sumners/Irelands with no proof prior to the deeds...