What happened to Prestwick?

[John_McMillan]

I'm struck when reading Darwin's "Golf Courses of the British Isles" how highly Prestwick was regarded in Darwin's time (the 1910's) -

"A man is probably less likely to be contradicted in lauding Prestwick than in singing the praises of any other course in Christendom.  There are probably more people who would put St. Andrews absolutely at the top of the tree, but, whereas nearly everyone would rank Prestwick in the first three, the Fifeshire course has a certain number of bitter enemies who rank it very low indeed.  One might almost say that Prestwick has no enemies; everyone admires it, though, naturally with slightly different degrees of enthusiasm."  

Mackenzie wrote admiringly of Prestwick in "Spirit of St. Andrews" -

"During the last 30 years there have been many good courses constructed in Britain and the United States, but to my mind none of them provide holes with such interesting strategic problems as these natural holes at St. Andrews.  The other British Championship courses consist of real links land, but many of them in their early stages were badly routed, and designed by golfers whose chief aim appeared to be to eliminate their natural sporting characteristics.  Two of the Scottish Championship courses, Prestwick and Troon, are excellent.  Muirfield is not so good but has been vastly improved since Harry Colt reconstructed it."  

In our time, the public ranking of Prestwick is that it is a notch below the quality of St. Andrews.  Tom Doak - not someone who is biased against older or "quirky" designs - rates Prestwick an "8" against St. Andrews "10."  

Does anyone have a spin for what happened to Prestwick's perception?  Is it mostly related to its being dropped from the British Open rota?  Is it the length and resistance to scoring story?  If it's the later, hasn't scoring also improved at the Old Course?  Isn't modern scoring in the Open Championships held at St. Andrews 5 to 10 strokes per round below Darwin's day?  

[Rich_Goodale]

Very interesting question, John

I would firstly question the question, though.  To me, Prestwick is still held in very high regard by most observers of golf.  It may seem otherwise only because it does not get it's name in the papers every few years or so due to not being on the Open rota.  I personally rank it as high as the Old Course and recently put it on a top 5 "must see" list of Scottish courses that someone on this site asked me to compile.

Prestwick was dropped from the Open Rota primarily becuase it's routing was and is not conducive to the masses of spectators that the R&A seems to need from this event.  Yes it is short, but so is TOC (even with the new Tiger tees).  If Prestwick ever did go "out of fashion" it was 30-40 years ago when blind shots, short-par 4's and quirk were very much out of vogue.  NGLA wasn't terribly highly thought of in the 60's and 70's either, was it?

Prestwick also suffers from the fact that it sits smack in the middle of a rough around the edges working class seaside town, within easy bus and train ride from Glasgow.  This setting takes away some of the cachet that is given to more remote and toothsome places such as Machrahanish, Dornoch and Fisher's Island.

Not for me, though!

[Doug Wright]

Rich,

Your mention of NGLA in this Prestwick thread got me to thinking--is Prestwick the NGLA of Scotland, NGLA the Prestwick of America, or both? I've not played NGLA unfortunately     but I've played Prestwick and the features, variety, quirk, playability and sheer fun at Prestwick resonate with some of the comments I've seen re NGLA. Your thoughts?

Also, 8 on the Doak scale is pretty good. I don't think anything "happened" to Prestwick.

[Tim_Weiman]

John:

Prestwick is one of my favorite places in golf, the perfect example of why we shouldn't waste time or money "modernizing" golf courses.  Getting dropped from the Open rota has been a blessing.  If you are looking for fun, go to Prestwick.

As for the perception issue, I can't give a better explanation than Rich.

[THuckaby2]

Doug:  hmmm... that's a damn good comparison... It's been nearly 15 years since I played Prestwick, and my round at NGLA was a few scant months ago, but my first take is Prestwick is far "weirder" or "quirkier" than NGLA... maybe I have this wrong.  Rich is gonna have to rule on this one.  But I wanted to get my word in before him because he doesn't have nearly the love for NGLA as us other "believers" - so take his words with a grain of salt!

Sorry Rich.  The best defense is a good offense.  

BTW, laying down the gauntlet here:  but one who prefers Shinnecock to NGLA would also prefer Muirfield to Prestwick.  In the great words of Seinfeld/Costanza, "not that there's anything WRONG with that...." It is just revelatory re one's mind set.

TH

[Paul Richards]

John:

Prestwick is not a great golf course.   It's much too easy
for the modern player with modern equipment.

That having been said, Prestwick is a must-see.  It is
steeped in tradition, it has SO MUCH history, and is just
a really fun course to play.

Prestwick is like a living museum.  What has changed is the
technology.  

I would love to play Prestwick with the hickory shafts and
gutty balls that we used at Oakhurst Links.  That would be
an absolute blast!

[Dan King]

Paul Richards writes:

Prestwick is not a great golf course.   It's much too easy for the modern player with modern equipment.

My new New Year's resolution is to never become a modern player. If being a modern player means not enjoying Prestwick then I'd prefer never becoming such a beast.

I think what hurts Prestwick is the town. St. Andrews grew out to the course, while Prestwick feels like it is out in the burbs. Though I have had a few pleasurable pints at the Red Lion.

"You would like to gather up several holes from Prestwick and mail them to your top ten enemies."
  --Dan Jenkins

[Paul Richards]

Dan:

Don't misinterpret the intention behind that statement.

I LOVE Prestwick!!

The question was posed by John, "What happened to
Prestwick?"  I merely answered the question.

Every GCAer needs to make a pilgrimmage to Prestwick
during their golfing lifetime!

[Rich_Goodale]

Doug

I very much think that Prestwick and NGLA are twins "separated at birth."  Very similar look and feel, shot values, old-fashioned "I've got so much oney I don't care how I look!" attitude.

TomH

The better comparison would be Muirfield/North Berwick, Turnberry/Prestwick, Shinnecock/NGLA.  In each case the first named is the "better" golf course while the latter is the one I would prefer to play if I had to make that agonizing choice.  The choice, of course, is not between chopped liver and pate de fois gras, but between Lafitte '29 and Romanee-Conti '61.  Same choice--the first is probably "better" but if I had to make the choice I'd go for the R-C every day.

Paul

They held the British Amateur at Prestwick last year and many of the best non-pros in the world had trouble breaking 75 in the qualifying.  That's tough enough for me.....

[Dan King]

I guess when you say modern player, you are referring to tour quality -- world-class amateurs?

I'm not sure why the fact that the top thousand or so golfers in the world can't be sufficiently challenged at Prestwick would remove it from the roll call of great courses.  If the millions of golfers who aren't in the most elite group can have a fun and challenging game at Prestwick shouldn't that be sufficient for greatness.  What do we care if a small minority aren't going to enjoy it as much as we will?

"Excessive golfing dwarfs the intellect. Nor is this to be wondered at when we consider that the more fatuously vacant the mind is, the better for play. It has been observed that absolute idiots play the steadiest."
  --Sir Walter Simpson  (The Art of Golf)

[THuckaby2]

You are forgiven, Mr. Goodale, oh mentor to me in all things.  That is a very fair comparison and although I chafe at calling the named courses "better", I can't disagree... and your statement you'd prefer the latter courses wins me over in any case.  Well said, here here.  I had you wrongly pegged, my apologies.

TH

[John_D._Bernhardt]

It is funny. I have such great feelings about Prestwick. The first hole, the cardinal bunker, even though it really is not an issue if I hit a 3 wood off the tee into the wind. I just love the place. Yet, this summer it  seemed to be so much more commercial. The green fees are up and the pro shop has a touristy feel to it. Natually, we all seem to get past the planes and the overall lack of quality feel to the neighborhood. I do love to have a piint in several of the hotels overlooking the course. It is a grand place whose history is beyond reproach. yet, like several Scotland courses the desire for additional revenues is hurting the goose that lays the eggs.

[Paul Richards]

John:

Funny you should mention that.  I felt the same way when
I visited it the last two summers as well.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich:

Paraphrasing Donald Ross, 'Romanee-Conti has never failed me.'

Prestwick dropping out of favour has to do with money. Where on earth can you put up the monstrous stands and wretched tents?

[Paul Richards]

Bob:

That may be true in "modern" times. However, they stopped
playing the Open there in 1925.  Don't think they had too
many corporate tents back then!

[Paul Richards]

Hey, I'm pretty impressed!  I knew that 1925 date and posted
even before I confirmed it in a book.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bob Huntley:

I never knew Donald Ross was a Romanee-Conti fan.

You better not let Tommy N know or we will be in for years of Ross bashing!

[John_McMillan]

Rich -

Can you point to anything which supports the 30-40 years ago date?  Does any writer in this period make statements that indicate a high regard for Prestwick?

Rich -

An "8" on the Doak scale is "pretty good," but there seems to be a time when Prestwick was regarded as even better than that.

All -

After an afternoon's consideration, I'll propose a third alternative.  Rich points out that he ranks Prestwick on par with St. Andrews, which may be the concensus of this group.  However, this group's tastes are a bit different from the general public's.  One might argue that Prestwick is a "connoisseur's" course - one appreciated by those with developed tastes.  Was this also the case in the 1910's/1920's?  Was Prestwick's appeal then universal, or limited to people like Darwin and Mackenzie?

[Tim_Weiman]

John,

I don't know enough about the history, but I do get the impression that at some point Prestwick was considered an even bigger deal than TOC.

That's an impression.  I can't give you any evidence and could be way off base.

[Slag_Bandoon]

I hope to play Prestwick as my initiation into Scottish golf this summer.  It's not its legendary status of firsts or historicness of what pro hit a great shot on what hole that draws me there,  it's the general feeling of archaic golf.  Is it the last dragon?  Or a classic book that cannot be abridged for better reading?  I read here that some of the feel of its charms is abating somewhat, well, I better get there before something horrendous and inconceivable happens.  I plan on using nothing longer than a 5 wood (taking 10 clubs in all) but I'm not going to be gathering gutties for the total immersion of throwback.  My game is not that accurate and it would be a sacrilege to be slicing them over the railway lines.  X-outs rule!  
  Anyway, I can't think of a better first round in Scotland for memories (memorability)...am I being naive?

  

[Tim_Weiman]

Slag,

I don't know if I'd go for Prestwick as first round just off the plane.  But, then, I'm biased.

I once saw a fellow play the course near the end of a two week holiday.  He was a very enthusiastic golfer, but one that never broke 100 in his life.

Then he got hit with a lightening bolt on the first hole at Prestwick, well, kind of........his opening tee shot struck a rail car but bounced off into the middle of the fairway.

It was a message from God.

He went on to shoot 91.  It got so exciting I damn near had to quit around the 12th hole just to focus on giving him encouragement.

This fellow went on to having an interesting life: when offered a pretty good job in Bogota, Columbia his wife threatened and then went forward with a divorce.

So, at around 50 years old he went off to Bogota and came back two years later with the love of his life.....an eighteen year old Columbian gal.

But, that is another story........one I can't guarantee will happen to you.......

Have a nice round!

[Rich_Goodale]

John

You'd better ask Tom MacWood or someone else on this site who actually reads books on golf architecture to verify my assumption about 3-40 year ago opinions.  In fact, I don't think that much at all was written about golf courses in those days.  My one reference, the World Atlas of Golf (c. 1975) refers to the 17th at Prestwick (Alps) as an "anachronism."  Vis a vis our other question, I did skim the Old Tom Morris Scrapbook at B&N over Xmas, and there is a lot there to suggest that Prestwick at TOC were considered as peers in the 19th century.  HW Wind also implies that this was so in the early 20th C.  To me an "8" on the Doak scale (or 2** on mine) is very good but not great, which accurately defines both Prestwick and TOC.

Slag

Go for Prestiwck right off the plane.  If you have any trouble arranging the tee time, let me know.

Slainte

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

John McMillan,

Prestwick did hold the 1952 British Amateur.

It was also a U.S. military, Army Air Corps base I believe, after WW II, exposing many American servicemen to the unique experience of golf on its fairways.

I also believe that air service was previously more available dirrectly into Prestwick, making it a natural, door to door destination.l

I think all of the above changed along with American values or tastes relative to golf, and Prestwick became more of a quirky outpost, than a highly desireable destination.

Many people prefer to play golf without having to contend with blind shots, so Prestwick was not the ideal course for them.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Paul Richards]

John:

I think you are correct.  It wasn't the corporate tents.  It
was the fact that Prestwick is so quirky and has the blind
shots that many people don't enjoy, so it dropped off of the
Open rota.

However, in my book, that quirkiness, the blind shots, and
the fact that it is so different from what us Americans are
used to, makes for a great day of golf and is a must-see for
visitors!

[John_McMillan]

Mark -

Re Alister's comments, Mackenzie's, like many architects, tends to get more personal than objective when it involves a project he bid on, but did not win.

Paul -

From what I have read, the decision to drop Prestwick was related to difficulties in controlling the crowds on such a small site, and not the player's taste for the golf course.  That Prestwick is a "quirky" golf course is the modern evaluation, and I'm still trying to figure out how and when that evaluation changed from the view in the 1910's/20's that Prestwick was the equal of St. Andrews.