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PThomas

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re Lawsonia....
« on: November 06, 2011, 10:09:28 PM »
....it came up on another thread about the slow greens there, which makes me wonder:

are there other highly ranked and /or highly thought of courses which have similar big conditioning issues?

does Lawsonia's slow greens affect the course so much that it is - gasp! - overrated?

For example, if Crystal Downs greens were as slow as Lawsonia's , do you think it would be as highly rated/regarded as it is now?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 10:27:23 PM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 10:27:02 PM »
Paul:

I don't think Lawsonia has conditioning issues. With the right weather, they maintain it in pretty fast-and-firm conditions, as some recent GCA outings there have reported. I just think the greens there are too slow for some of us GCA geeks.

I'm not quite sure why that is. It may be they got some paying customers who complained. It may be they think the average Joe who golfs there will be intimidated by faster green speeds (Lawsonia as a conference center is trying to drum up more business -- my wife is there this week for one! -- and maybe the spillover "conference crowd" that plays on occasional round is viewed as someone who'd object to faster greens. It's hard to tell; they used to be faster.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 10:28:48 PM »
....it came up on another thread about the slow greens there, which makes me wonder:

are there other highly ranked and /or highly thought of courses which have similar big conditioning issues?

does Lawsonia's slow greens affect the course so much that it is - gasp! - overrated?

Paul,

Honestly I think the idea that Lawsonia has slow greens is a bit of a GCA.com myth, or something that has been fixed in recent years. I can't recall a round there in the last 3 years were the greens were slower than a legit 9...which is plenty fast for those greens.
H.P.S.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 10:32:14 PM »
Pat:

They are slower than, say, 15 years ago, when I first started going up there. Of course, too fast or too slow is a matter of one's opinion. And I think another myth is that of the highly sloped Lawsonia greens -- some are, but not all. I can see increased green speeds as troubling on 12, with the big fault in the back of the green, or 6 if you're on the wrong tier. Others?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 10:49:45 PM »
When I was fortunate enough to play that wonderful course. The greens were not fast but but had a nice pace for the size and slope.

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 10:54:58 PM »
For what it's worth, they were plenty fast I felt at the Midwest Mashie this year.  Hard too.  I hit a lot of greens to only find the ball running off the back.

Very unique greens I might add where the "echelon" concept is evident as well.  Double breaking putts galore.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 11:07:29 PM »
I played there 2 weeks ago, and they were plenty fast. The greens combined with a medium wind were challenging and much faster could have been problematic. The front of 16 green was on the verge of not holding down wind and slope. One player marked and placed only to have his ball blow and roll 20 ft off the front from where he had just played.

I think it's the other way around to some degree. It can be too much to play highly sloping greens that are much, much faster than 'intended.' If Lawsonia's are closer to the original (much slower) speed, that's a positive and the contours provide a challenge that is more achievable.

Brian Hilko

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »
I found the greens to be fine. Plus the last 2 summers have been just awful for growing grass in the midwest. If the greens were at an 11 they would be too much to handle for the golfers there. I hardly ever factor green speed into my view of a course. I played Wuskewon this fall and the greens were running at a 13. I just felt they were trying to cover up how boring the greens were. Green speed is overrated. A great set of greens doesn't rely on speed. I always enjoy Lawsonia's greens.
Down with the brown

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 09:52:07 AM »
Over rated is a funny concept considering Lawsonia is only mentioned in Golfweek and on this site.  What they are able to charge is a better indication of how they are rated in the golfing community.  Golfweek loves to throw a bone to their fugal and/or disconnected readership.

Should a course that is not a destination in itself be a top 100.  Of course not, Lawsonia is over rated in Golfweek and on this site but a fine value in the real world.

Note:  It is a nice enough place to play alone or as a filler during a trip.  I have it right there with Wild Horse.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 10:52:56 AM »
John,    Do you find Chicago Golf Club overrated? I have played both Lawsonia and CGC several times and feel  that if Lawsonia had the same maintenance budget/practices they would be pretty close in level of rating-damn good. The architectural bones are quite similar. CGC gets a very high rating- not sure if it is because it is that good or because it is very difficult to access and as such gets a higher number. For my money I would much rather spend 4 days at Lawsonia versus Whistling Straits- just a personal preference.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 11:00:30 AM »
First off, I think the slow greens at Lawsonia are a thing of the past.  I played the course in June 2009 and fell in love with it.  My only complaint was that the greens were so slow you couldn't really use the slopes and humps as much as I would have hoped.  However, as others have mentioned, a group went up there for the Midwest Mashie last spring and I thought the greens were PERFECT.  Very firm and just the right amount of speed.  Couple that with the other reports of firm and fast greens over that past 2+ years and it sounds like the "problem" has been fixed.

Secondly, I'm not quite getting your logic Paul.  I think you have it backwards.  Would Lawsonia be thought of better with more consistent conditioning of the greens in the past?  Is it therefore underrated due to inconsistencies in green conditions?  Perhaps.  I would say that if Crystal Downs' greens were as slow as Lawsonia's (the first time I played it), it would definitely take away from the course.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 11:20:41 AM »
I visited Lawsonia 1 month ago.  The greens probably stimped in the 10.5 range.  Plenty fast, firm and smooth.  In fact, I felt that Lawsonia had one of the best maintenance melds of any public course I have ever played.

Bart
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:33:41 PM by Bart Bradley »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 11:34:21 AM »
John,    Do you find Chicago Golf Club overrated? I have played both Lawsonia and CGC several times and feel  that if Lawsonia had the same maintenance budget/practices they would be pretty close in level of rating-damn good. The architectural bones are quite similar. CGC gets a very high rating- not sure if it is because it is that good or because it is very difficult to access and as such gets a higher number. For my money I would much rather spend 4 days at Lawsonia versus Whistling Straits- just a personal preference.

I have not played Chicago Golf Club but would be happy to have it as the jewel in the crown of a golf trip.  I would play there in an instant if invited as a stand alone course.  My gut tells me it is not over rated. 

I have zero interest in paying to play Whistling Straits.  I would play it for free but know in my heart of hearts it is over rated.

I really don't get your if and or but rating criteria when it comes to maintenance budget/practice.  Sorry, I have to see both Lawsonia and Wild Horse for what they are and am not interested in deceiving my friends by pretending what they could be.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2011, 12:27:39 PM »
John,

You're comments are so all over the map.  From spot on to totally out in left field (i.e. WS and Lawsonia).  You're the GCA guy I'd most like to buy a cocktail for...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 12:32:25 PM »
John,     Several times I have played a "highly " rated course and come off the course wondering what it was the experts saw that I didn't. Exclusive , difficult to access clubs get a bump up in my opinion. Some will argue even more so on the East Coast. For example, Olympia Fields North- if this course were located any place else it would be ranked top 30 in any list. I also believe Flossmoor across the street gets little respect nationally despite being very solid. Big maintenance budgets and perfect conditions sway voters, sad but true. Haven't played CGC? I shall get to work on that :)

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 12:42:56 PM »
Jack, if you need someone to fill that group at CGC, I'm available  ;D

I too thought the greens at Lawsonia for the Mashie were great. With some of those contours, if they were much faster large portions of the greens would simply not be available for pins.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 12:50:25 PM »
I would put Indian Canyon in this club as well.

Its such a shame because it has the best countoured greens of any course in the area....and its a pity they are in such poor condition.

They stimp from 6-7
They are bumpy
They've lost all the big breaking putts
Ball marks everywhere

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2011, 12:55:03 PM »
I find it surprising on DG talking about Golf Course Architecture that so few place playing interest through contours on greens above green speed.

Jon

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 01:31:35 PM »
OK, so reading all the posts I'm left to wonder:  people are saying that Lawsonia's greens are too slow and Crystal Downs would be less than great with slower greens?!?!?

Crystal Downs is great regardless.  It doesn't need green speeds to create the mystique.  The course is that damn good.

I played Lawsonia in The Mashie and thought the greens were fine, the contouring fun and the golf course a blast.  Lawsonia is not an over the top, beat you up kind of course.  If the wind picks up it can be quite a challenge.  Otherwise, it's flat out fun to play.  I wish it was more accessible because I would go out of my way to play it more often.

If Lawsonia is only known by Golfweek and this board, so be it.  The course deserves more recognition in my opinion.  I'm glad I made a trip to see it myself.  Other raters are told where to go or are looking for the "feather in their cap" course to play.  Their loss.

This is a tough crowd if it's come to knocking these two courses around....

Ken

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 01:49:02 PM »
Ken:

I hope I don't come off as knocking Lawsonia -- it's probably my favorite course to play (but I also live 1-1/2 hours away, so it's pretty accessible to me).

I have played it several times in recent years, and although the course itself is in terrific condition, there are times when the green speeds seem a tad slow, and thus the "terror" -- for lack of a better word -- that comes into play when you face one of those big internal slopes with faster green speeds sometimes doesn't come into play. Fun, yes, and really enjoyable, but there is a side of me (as I suspect there is for alot of folks who post here) who like be terrorized every once in a while.

And I'd argue -- although of course this may be selective memory -- they seemed faster 15-some years ago when I first started playing the course. They did seem a bit more scary back then, so much so that it could impact your judgement on approach shots, i.e., don't leave it there or you'll putt the ball off the green/never get it close to the hole (ala examples cited in the Cyrstal Downs thread). I haven't gotten as much sense of that in recent years (although candor prompts me to admit I haven't been able to play it this year, so I'm glad to hear of reports from the field about their speed!) That doesn't diminish the enjoyment of the round, but I think there are some reduced chances of facing terror-filled putts on greens. That's a highly individualistic view of whether that makes one's round still enjoyable. It still is, but just wishing for a few moments of those.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 02:05:58 PM »
It's kind of a tricky question because green speeds can be much of a personal preference to determine if they're ideal or not at a particular course.  For me they need to be rolling quick enough where you can use the slopes on and around the greens as they were likely intended to be used.  If you can't then I think the course loses something.  I played Lawsonia in the Fall of 2009 and I couldn't use the slopes and found the greens to be, for me, too slow.  If they were a bit quicker I think it would have been a more enjoyable round.  That said, I really liked the place and would return again.
So bad it's good!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 02:08:23 PM »
Phil,

This is exactly how I would have described Indian Canyon 10 years ago:

I have played it several times in recent years, and although the course itself is in terrific condition, there are times when the green speeds seem a tad slow, and thus the "terror" -- for lack of a better word -- that comes into play when you face one of those big internal slopes with faster green speeds sometimes doesn't come into play. Fun, yes, and really enjoyable, but there is a side of me (as I suspect there is for alot of folks who post here) who like be terrorized every once in a while.

You would get yourself in a few spots and were just praying to two putt.  Other putts would be only 10 feet away and could have 5-6 feet of break.  It was an absolute blast!!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 02:11:45 PM »
Maybe I've been lucky and usually get up to Lawsonia in the fall, but I've never noticed that the greens were particularly slow.  Have they changed supers in the past few years?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2011, 04:32:06 PM »
John,    Do you find Chicago Golf Club overrated? I have played both Lawsonia and CGC several times and feel  that if Lawsonia had the same maintenance budget/practices they would be pretty close in level of rating-damn good. The architectural bones are quite similar. CGC gets a very high rating- not sure if it is because it is that good or because it is very difficult to access and as such gets a higher number. For my money I would much rather spend 4 days at Lawsonia versus Whistling Straits- just a personal preference.

I have zero interest in paying to play Whistling Straits.  I would play it for free but know in my heart of hearts it is over rated.

I feel the same way about Whistling Straits, zero interest in spending a lot of money to get beat up.

When I said so on this website I was pilloried as a sissy boy.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: re Lawsonia....
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2011, 04:38:14 PM »

I feel the same way about Whistling Straits, zero interest in spending a lot of money to get beat up.

When I said so on this website I was pilloried as a sissy boy.

Must've been when the economy was rollin'! ;D

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