Bandon Dunes...bulldoze and start over

[Tom_Doak]

The point to point distances that I measured for the longer tee to green treks are below

Pacific   
green-tee   distance (ish) in yards
eleven-twelve   140

There is actually a tee for #12 only about sixty yards from #11 green ... it's the back tee on #5, which was originally meant for #12.

Unfortunately, they can't use it for everyday guests because you guys might hit back down #4 fairway instead of playing #12.  But #12 is a better hole from that tee, and a much better walk.

[Mike_Young]

I just played both courses.  I liked both but PD was the one I would prefer.  My biggest issue was the "forcing of holes 9 and 18.  IMHO I'm not sure the clubhouse was in the right spot.   BUT golf dorks amaze me with how they want to rate all these good courses.  Do you try to rate women the same way.  Cause there are a lot of good looking women.

[Joe_Tucholski]

There is actually a tee for #12 only about sixty yards from #11 green ... it's the back tee on #5, which was originally meant for #12.

Unfortunately, they can't use it for everyday guests because you guys might hit back down #4 fairway instead of playing #12.  But #12 is a better hole from that tee, and a much better walk.

I should also state I wrote "distance (ish)" because google earth was pretty grainy with the images in Bandon OR and I had a tough time determining exactly where the tees are located on PD, especially on the distance from 11 green to 12 tee.  I would guess the distances are probably +/- 20 yards.

[Jud_T]

 Do you try to rate women the same way.

Uh.. yes, at least for those of us who are heterosexual...  

[Bart Bradley]

I will give nearly the same answer about BD as I gave about BT.

BD is a terrific golf course with an exhilarating environment. 

All of the courses at Bandon are among the best 30 or so modern courses in the USA.  If you are going to bulldoze the courses of this quality and worse, you are going to be a very, very busy fellow.

Mac, if people go to Bandon and skip BD it only speaks to the quality of the other courses and not to the weakness of BD.

If BD were the only course, we'd all be happy to play it (as proved to be true when they first opened).  For me, BD would rank 4th among the courses there, but it is a "not to be missed" experience in its own right.

Bart

[Sean Leary]

BD is the most played course at the Resort and the overwhelming "retail golfer" favorite. No 'dozers here!

Rob:

Where'd you get your statistics?

I haven't seen the round counts for 3-4 years now, but I know that for the first few years Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes did pretty much the same numbers of rounds from the day Pacific opened.

Maybe it is urban legend, but people working at the resort for years have said that BD gets the most play. It's been mentioned here numerous times, I am surprised you have never heard hat. I always assumed it was do to proximity and first time visitors that aren't GCA nerds like us...

[Rob Rigg]

Hi Tom,

I usually ask about round counts when I go to the resort out of curiosity (usually bc my choices to not align) - so my info is based on discussions with caddies and people who work at the Resort.

Feedback seems to be pretty steady at - Bandon, Pacific, OM in 1,2,3 and Trails a fairly distant 4th.

Based on a few discussions with caddies OM and Trails seems to have the most love/hate relationships with some people playing them once and canceling the balance of their rounds there and others playing them once and shifting their rounds from the 3 other courses to one of those.

I'd imagine because Bandon is more "down the middle" and harder to lose a ball while also being an enjoyable round, that makes it the fav of a lot of "retail golfers" with Pac a close second.

Edit - "overwhelming" retail golfer favorite was too strong a description in my first post, maybe "apparently preferred" would be more accurate

I do not have specific stats for '11, my comments are based on what I have been told by various peeps at the Resort.

David E - I felt the same way that you did after my initial visit to Bandon - it seemed like a course riddled with singles and triples or home runs. I have started to appreciate it more with repeat visits.

Bandon and Pacific both seem like fairly easy walks to me - apparently Bandon is shorter but it does seem like there are some long'ish green to tee walks that offset the longer walks at Pac. 3 to 4 and 12 to 13 at Pac almost get a hall pass from me because they build excitement as you move to 2 of the best tee shots on the course and you have the ocean views.

[William_G]

Mac,

Like your hijacked title!

FWIW, the original routing of BD was influenced by the land available at the time, all those folks, Keiser/Mckee, involved including the architect, as well as bringing the whole concept of links style golf to the beautiful south coast of Oregon in the first place.

"Improvements" at BD are ongoing....some random thoughts

For instance hole #1..........With repeats tee shots hit to the right into the cupola and parking lot and alternative green and fairway were bulit to the left of the current fairway...the new green has never been used for a variety of reasons.

Also, #2 the original tee shot was meant to be from the south not the west...the tee boxes are still there offering a semi blind shot instead of the visully intimidating all carry over wasteland you now have

#3 has had some gorse removal making it less penal to miss right off the fairway, I always love the runup between the bunkers at the green if you have a chance with your 2nd shot

#4 is great par 4 and  like #3 at Old Mac with the drop of the clothing at your second shot, however I agree the gorse removal on the right has lessened the hole and sped up play

#5 IMHO too much gorse removal

#6 has a green that is closer to eroding down the dliff than any other on the property

#7 and 8 are wide open driving holes with a preferred direction to attack the greens and hole postions

the walk from 8 to 9 is probaly the most mispalced at the resort...but it gets you back to the clubhouse...which also can be part of the reason why BD gaets more play

The abandoned driving range to the right of #9 is a testament to the fact that the plan for success and 3 more world class golf course was far from a done deal in 1997..

Furthermore the abandoned short game practice area to the right of #10 is now used for testing turf

Taking out all the gorse to the right of 10 has also softened the hole whiile the play off the tee

#11 has also suffered from too much gorse removal on the left

Love #12

Too much asphalt now on your way to #13 and a ton of gorse is gone opening up the whole area including

The right side of the fairway where #14 is...but wou want to be left anyway...

Love #15

#16 is a great hole where the resort keeps the tees up to entice everyone, but makes it somewhat dangerous when you are teeing off on #17

Bunkers on the left (edit) of the fairway were added to those already there on 17 to make it more challenging

now to your right is the Preserve across the creek which someday may extend all the way to the beach....

18 takes you back too the clubhouse but don't forget that wind out of the left  as walk past all that gorse protecting you from the wind as your second shot may go too far right and be lost in the creek

Thanks

[Sean Leary]

Mac,

Like your hijacked title!

FWIW, the original routing of BD was influenced by the land available at the time, all those folks, Keiser/Mckee, involved including the architect, as well as bringing the whole concept of links style golf to the beautiful south coast of Oregon in the first place.

"Improvements" at BD are ongoing....some random thoughts

For instance hole #1..........With repeats tee shots hit to the right into the cupola and parking lot and alternative green and fairway were bulit to the left of the current fairway...the new green has never been used for a variety of reasons.

Also, #2 the original tee shot was meant to be from the south not the west...the tee boxes are still there offering a semi blind shot instead of the visully intimidating all carry over wasteland you now have

#3 has had some gorse removal making it less penal to miss right off the fairway, I always love the runup between the bunkers at the green if you have a chance with your 2nd shot

#4 is great par 4 and  like #3 at Old Mac with the drop of the clothing at your second shot, however I agree the gorse removal on the right has lessened the hole and sped up play

#5 IMHO too much gorse removal

#6 has a green that is closer to eroding down the dliff than any other on the property

#7 and 8 are wide open driving holes with a preferred direction to attack the greens and hole postions

the walk from 8 to 9 is probaly the most mispalced at the resort...but it gets you back to the clubhouse...which also can be part of the reason why BD gaets more play

The abandoned driving range to the right of #9 is a testament to the fact that the plan for success and 3 more world class golf course was far from a done deal in 1997..

Furthermore the abandoned short game practice area to the right of #10 is now used for testing turf

Taking out all the gorse to the right of 10 has also softened the hole whiile the play off the tee

#11 has also suffered from too much gorse removal on the left

Love #12

Too much asphalt now on your way to #13 and a ton of gorse is gone opening up the whole area including

The right side of the fairway where #14 is...but wou want to be left anyway...

Love #15

#16 is a great hole where the resort keeps the tees up to entice everyone, but makes it somewhat dangerous when you are teeing off on #17

Bunkers on the right of the fairway were added to those already there on 17 to make it more challenging

now to your right is the Preserve across the creek which someday may extend all the way to the beach....

18 takes you back too the clubhouse but don't forget that wind out of the left  as walk past all that gorse protecting you from the wind as your second shot may go too far right and be lost in the creek

Thanks

Gray,

Haven't some of the clumps in the middle been removed on 5 since it opened as well. I seem to remember more when it opened...

[William_G]

Sean,

Yes the two clumps have been thinned due to traffic trampling down all the beach grass that was planted there...looking for lost balls..They also seem smaller to me and have become somewhat not in play, can't remember the last time I our someone I've played with has been in those. And now with the hole less bound by gorse, less penal to try and hit driver into the neck of the fairway.

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

Yes the two clumps have been thinned due to traffic trampling down all the beach grass that was planted there...looking for lost balls..They also seem smaller to me and have become somewhat not in play, can't remember the last time I our someone I've played with has been in those. And now with the hole less bound by gorse, less penal to try and hit driver into the neck of the fairway.

I could have sworn there was more than two originally but you could be right..

[Eric Johnson]

On #5 there were four "islands."  The northern most was removed leaving the existing three.

Also, on 17 there are no bunkers on the right side of the hole.  There is one bunker (centerish) fronting the Cut Creek ravine.

[Jim Franklin]

Where is my copyright fee?

[William_G]

On #5 there were four "islands."  The northern most was removed leaving the existing three.

Also, on 17 there are no bunkers on the right side of the hole.  There is one bunker (centerish) fronting the Cut Creek ravine.

gracias amigo

[Michael Dugger]

I with the other dude who considers the 16th at BD his favorite hole at the resort.

It plays so different based on wind behind you vs wind in your face, at least for me. With a strong wind in the face you better catch it flush to clear the chasm. I have hit almost pin high with my drive only to find one little pot bunker between me and the pin. Just a great hole in the most dynamic setting on the entire property.

BD will always be loved.  It is a little more forgiving than the other courses, yet cranks it up a notch a time or two.  Regarding all the gorse removal, I suspect this is still a work in progress. How quickly does the stuff grow??? Fast is the answer. Ignore it for a year or two and see where that leaves you.  Purdy colors, but a pain in the rump.

[Michael George]

First, I love Bandon Dunes and think it is actually the most playable course at the resort.  Any handicapper can get around on this course and enjoy the round.  That being said, I do think they could make a few changes that would really improve the course (being that I am an absolute nobody and don't really know what I am doing):

#9 - I would use the old driving range to have 2 alternate routes (ie. split fairway) to the green.  I think it would be absolutely cool to have essentailly 2 different ways to play the hole, separated by the large sand dune to the right of the current hole.  The fairway on the practice range would be a shorter route but the approach would be much more difficult as the green runs away from you from the right.  You would have to cut out an entrance to the hole in the right dunes, but I would leave it very small in between the dunes to make it fairly blind and create that cool effect of walking between the dunes (ala #5).

#10 - pull tee back toward club house.  First, it would make a short hole more difficult.  Second, it would lend the same feeling that you have on the first tee to the 10th tee, which is a really special feeling.

#18 - run the fairway right up to the cliff on the right of the hole and clear teh brush on the cliff side (ala what Mike Davis did on several holes at Pebble prior to the 2010 Open).  Add bunkers on the left side of the hole to make players tempt with the right side.  Move the green to the right so that it hugs the cliff more and really presents a risk/reward shot and allows for the exciting finish that the course deserves.  Right now it is a fairly boring hole.  

There must be a reason that these changes have not been made as they seem pretty simple.  Or am I missing something and way off the mark on this one (which has never happened before - LOL).

[Terry Lavin]

No offense to the armchair archies out there, but this is the apogee of mental masturbation.  All four courses on the property are great, just great.  They don't need tinkering by us hobbyists.  But I do think there are a couple holes that could use some...

[Michael George]

Terry:

I agree on all 4 courses being great and any changes are splitting hairs.  However, I think of it more as an exercise as to why my suggestions may be wrong or right.  In other words, critically analyze my suggestions, I enjoy the exercise. Also, that is what hobbyists do - in any business, you have to listen to your customer - even though they may be wrong.

I have amatuer ideas for every course that I have ever played.  However, I think if you suggest a change to a Doak, you are automatically kicked off the site (I think the "Re:  Pacific dunes...bulldoze and start over" string was immediately rejected by the web hosting software - LOL).

I say this in jest as I love every Doak course that I have played - Pacific Dunes remains my favorite course (even though the #1 tee needs work imho - LOL)

[Jud_T]

They don't need tinkering by us hobbyists.  But I do think there are a couple holes that could use some...

Agreed.  Problem is you're thinking of the wrong holes! 

[Terry Lavin]

Given the state of my golf game and my relative girth, I think my thoughts on improving the menu in McKee's Pub might be more, shall we say, authoritative!

[Michael George]

Terry:

I wish I had your resume of courses. 

So what are your suggestions for McKee's.  This might actually be a good topic.

[Will Lozier]

Mac Plumart,

Whilst I am happy to treat every course on its merits and enjoy it for what it is, if there is one course in the world that should be bulldozed and started again, I reckon you are spot on in your thread title- it should be Bandon Dunes.  

Bandon Dunes isn't so much a golf course as 5-6 interesting seaside holes joined together by a series of average holes and even averager walks between holes.  

At a resort that hosts three courses full of inticacies and subtleties, desgned by 2 of the world's great modern architectural firms, Bandon Dunes stands out for it lack of depth, subtely or attention to detail.

The site is world class but the course is far from it.  Compared to its neighbours, it is a wate of good land and handing it over to Gil Hanse to work his magic would not likely improve the Bandon Dunes Resort's economic outlook, but for us archi buffs, it would improve the standing of the bandon Dunes Resort.  

David,

Lack of subtlety?  A series of average holes?  1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, & 17 are all VERY interesting designs made more so by the firm/fast turf, wind, and routing which takes those conditions into great consideration.  Isn't that what good architecture is about?  Furthermore, BD is perhaps the most unique course on the property in terms of style (bunkering, width, etc.). 

Your sentence, "if there is one course in the world that should be bulldozed and started again, I reckon you are spot on in your thread title - it should be Bandon Dunes" is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in either of the "Bulldoze" threads.  What other courses have you played other than those in Bandon, OR that are better than BD?  Very interested to hear this LONG list.

Cheers

[David_Elvins]

Will,

A quick list of courses I have ranked ahead of Bandon in my personal rankings (list is subject to change and is rough).  
Royal Melbourne, Barnbougle Dunes, St Andrews, Pacific Dunes, Merion East, Passatiempo, Pebble Beach, Kingston Heath, Lost Farm, Old MacDonald, Garden City, Bandon Trails, Lake Karrinyup, Commonwealth, Rustic Canyon, The National (Moonah), St Andrews Beach, Woodlands, THe Lakes, Royal Melbourne East + a few more that I have around the same mark.  

I have a preference for courses that are coherent and complete, and tend to rate down courses that are uneven which may explain why I judge Bandon Dunes harshly.  I also tend not to give as much credit for the firm and fast conditions because I play a few similar courses in Australia, whereas the Americans find it a lot more unique.  

I am happy to re-rate it higher after playing it a few times but for now I have the following comments:
-Great golf holes invariably have great green complexes.  Where at BD are the great green complexes?  4 and 16 suit the hole pretty well and are the pick of the bunch, but even they tend towards simplicity. 
- I found the Par 3s very similar in style - plateued green with drop offs on 2-3 sides.  In fact this probably appears too much throughout the course and the green designs are noticably less complex than the neighbouring courses.
-There some pretty average aesthetics and a lack of attention to detail i nthe shaping, eg contouring of 10th fairway, 13th fairway, left bunker on 1, fairway bunkers on 8, 10, thing in the middle of fifth fairway.
- The walks through the middle of the course detracted from the experience.  

Don't get me wrong, it is a good course but when compared to the neighbouring courses which feature such a high level of attention to detail, it sticks out like a saw thumb.  I can imagine finding something new and interesting everytime I played Old Mac, PacDunes or Trails.  I can imagine myself being teased by all of these courses too, and never find ing out the perfect way to play each hole.  At Bandon, I felt there wasn't much more to learn after seeing it once, it was all pretty easy to understand and work out what to do.  

What do you think are the best green complexes at BD?
What do you like aboutthe following holes that you rate highly? The 3rd, the 7th, the 10th, and the 14th.
Thanks.

[Kevin Pallier]

Very few places off the top of my head can I think where the original course on a development is improved on.

For mine - there is a vast improvement at Bandon though with the addition of the other courses.

There are a couple of very good holes but they are more than offset by one's that detract from the experience - eg: those at the middle of the round and 18 for starters.

[Will Lozier]

Will,

A quick list of courses I have ranked ahead of Bandon in my personal rankings (list is subject to change and is rough).  
Royal Melbourne, Barnbougle Dunes, St Andrews, Pacific Dunes, Merion East, Passatiempo, Pebble Beach, Kingston Heath, Lost Farm, Old MacDonald, Garden City, Bandon Trails, Lake Karrinyup, Commonwealth, Rustic Canyon, The National (Moonah), St Andrews Beach, Woodlands, THe Lakes, Royal Melbourne East + a few more that I have around the same mark.  

I have a preference for courses that are coherent and complete, and tend to rate down courses that are uneven which may explain why I judge Bandon Dunes harshly.  I also tend not to give as much credit for the firm and fast conditions because I play a few similar courses in Australia, whereas the Americans find it a lot more unique.  

I am happy to re-rate it higher after playing it a few times but for now I have the following comments:
-Great golf holes invariably have great green complexes.  Where at BD are the great green complexes?  4 and 16 suit the hole pretty well and are the pick of the bunch, but even they tend towards simplicity.  
- I found the Par 3s very similar in style - plateued green with drop offs on 2-3 sides.  In fact this probably appears too much throughout the course and the green designs are noticably less complex than the neighbouring courses.
-There some pretty average aesthetics and a lack of attention to detail i nthe shaping, eg contouring of 10th fairway, 13th fairway, left bunker on 1, fairway bunkers on 8, 10, thing in the middle of fifth fairway.
- The walks through the middle of the course detracted from the experience.  

Don't get me wrong, it is a good course but when compared to the neighbouring courses which feature such a high level of attention to detail, it sticks out like a saw thumb.  I can imagine finding something new and interesting everytime I played Old Mac, PacDunes or Trails.  I can imagine myself being teased by all of these courses too, and never find ing out the perfect way to play each hole.  At Bandon, I felt there wasn't much more to learn after seeing it once, it was all pretty easy to understand and work out what to do.  

What do you think are the best green complexes at BD?
What do you like about the following holes that you rate highly? The 3rd, the 7th, the 10th, and the 14th.
Thanks.

David,

I think you make valid points about the green complexes and a lack of variety in the short holes.  Compared to the other three courses, the greens do have less interest.  Having caddied probably 20 rounds and played another 10 at BD, there is much more to them than appears.  A few examples...

The 5th runs away at the back - downwind chasing a back pin can see your ball run right through the green while into the wind it is common to have to putt from the front over the high middle portion before seeing your ball run well past - still preferable to leaving your first short to leave a downhill second.  Getting close to a front pin downwind requires clubbing down and trusting yourself to land it short - and there is a bit of a backboard to use.  The middle portion is maybe the hardest in any wind to get the ball close.  

I think the 7th hole in general is one of the most fun to play on the property.  That green is brilliant especially with the back right pin - using the back of the green one can get it very close while a slight pull might leave one long left which is dead with that same pin.  Back left is a sucker pin while the front position allows for creative approaches as well.  Anything short right of the green leaves a super-fun recovery for the same reasons.

8 & 9 have much more to them that a few more plays will reveal - the front and back left pins on 8 offer a number of options and anywhere on 9 downwind trying to reach in two can lead to all sorts of crazy recoveries.  

17 is an outrageous green that I implore you to think more about without commenting on why I love it.  I'll leave the rest of the back nine for another time or for an exchange of PMs.

Generally, I feel Kidd gave a great deal of thought to the greens and their surrounds in the context of each hole - length, wind, etc. - and would argue that having a caddie read your putts during your stay will leave you thinking the greens at BD are fairly mundane.  But, play a few more rounds reading for yourself and you'll find more interest.  I totally agree that they are less interesting and much more modern looking, two characteristics that we GCA'ers tend to be bored by.

As for the contouring of fairways, 10 has a great deal of undulation and the hole itself, from the tee, requires a lot of thought if you want a look at the pin.  Bust it left to get a peek or get a shorter, but partially blind, shot by playing right.  The width allows for choice and the pin should be a consideration as well.  13 has unbelievable contouring!  And strategy, play left off the tee downwind to try to get yourself greenside in two or play around the left to give yourself a full third into the breeze.

Per the walks...even while lugging two bags for the worst players I ever looped for, I NEVER thought twice about a break in rhythm.  While playing, 6-7 and 12-13 are the only awkward treks as you really walk back on the par-3's you just played - BUT, both lead to high tees with excellent views.  I have also always found the anticipation of playing the next hole combined with the beauty of the property more than enough to occupy my thoughts.  

I've already covered why I think 7 and 10 are unique holes.  3 tee is the first realization that you are headed to the cliffs for the first time and entices the better player to challenge the right side and the two deep bunkers for a chance to reach in two when there is loads of room left and, the second requires a solid shot into a stiff breeze.  14 uses the two dunes beautifully - vertically and horizontally - and is a great driving hole into the breeze with central hazards and a wonderful greensite - front left and back right pins are great fun - while downwind, the better player can try to get within putting distance (40 yds.) by cutting the dogleg and challenging the little dual bunker.  Love that hole!

I encourage you to play it twice next time you are at the resort and maybe even without a caddie.  Late on a summer day with the place to yourself, I feel BD is absolutely world-class even compared to it's younger siblings - and even with it's mild flaws.  Would love to hear your thoughts on my thoughts!

Cheers

By the way, your list of courses you rank ahead of BD is very nice - I haven't yet been lucky enough to play down your way - but, it isn't long enough to suggest bulldozing BD!