Urgent - C&C Talking Stick Scottsdale - North or South?

[Kevin Lynch]

I'm in Scottsdale for the day, and was going to improvise a quick visit to Coore & Crenshaw's Talking Stick Resort.  I need some quick feedback on the differences between the North & South Courses.

Any feedback would be great.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Between the two, there is no contest:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick/

[Sev K-H Keil]

I second TS North, no doubt... --- but, if at all possible, We-Ka-Po Golf Club's Saguaro Course is worth the detour.

[Brad Tufts]

The answer is obviously the North for one round only, but what is the deal with the South?  Half decent?

[Mark Johnson]

The answer is obviously the North for one round only, but what is the deal with the South?  Half decent?

its half decent, but as others have mentioned.   there are much better options in the area, especially Wekopa

[Ronald Montesano]

Having played neither, I suggest the composite West course as an alternative...

[Jud_T]

Everyone here needs to play TS North.  Probably the only course I've really enjoyed playing at 7000+ and, although many would disagree, IMO superior to WeKoPa in conception if not in conditioning or raw land.  Read Ran's write-up about the course and the bunkering in particular.

[Doug Wright]

If you only have time for one round play TS North, but you should try to play both to appreciate how architects as creative as C&C can design two very different courses on the same barren flat piece of property. I think TS South is an underrated course. The push-up greens are reminiscent of classical parkland courses. I actually think it's more difficult than TS North too. The weak 18th hole detracts, but TS South is worth a play IMO.

[Tom Yost]

Everyone here needs to play TS North.  Probably the only course I've really enjoyed playing at 7000+   ...

Should be noted, a par 70 at that.  

Probably too late for Mr Lynch to make his decision, but just to detail the basic differences:

The South course has a more "traditional" feel, with (non-native) shade trees and water hazards.  

The North course is more rustic, with natural vegetation.  A prototype minimalist style course.  Indeed, the way the bunkering is used to blend the turfed areas into the native surroundings is remarkably subtle.

While I prefer the North, the South is worth a play for sure.  Both courses are core routings and walkable and make an outstanding 35-hole day.  I only wish they would let the North be a little more rustic - less plush and more firm/fast.

TSN could be my perfect everyday course if not for the high season tourist fee structure.

[Kevin Lynch]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.  There was some unexpected availability in my day, and I had to decide quickly.  From the preliminary feedback, it looked like North was the clear winner.  Unfortunately, the North Course was closed through today for overseeding (opens up tomorrow, but I'm headed back to Buffalo).

Instead of C&C, I ended up at Arthur Hills' Padre Course at Camelback Golf Club.  My first exposure to Hills was in Tampa, which left me with a very bad taste in my mouth.  Today was a much better offering.  Nothing spectacular, with plenty of room for resort guests,  but there were several green sites and short par 4s that were impressive. 

Next time I'm in Scottsdale, I'll be sure to leave time for TS North (and South, if time permits).  Thanks again.

[PThomas]

skip the south

[Mark Smolens]

Paul, depending on the time of year, it's hard to have enough light to play 36 holes, so I'd say skip the South only if you have time to drive a ways for your second round. Also, if you want to play one of the rounds with your 78 year old mother, she'll like the South much better (Mom has trouble climbing into and out of the bunkers on the North, so I generally play South with her, and then when she goes home for a nap, I'll stay and play the North).

[Mike Hendren]

If you only have time for one round play TS North, but you should try to play both to appreciate how architects as creative as C&C can design two very different courses on the same barren flat piece of property. I think TS South is an underrated course. The push-up greens are reminiscent of classical parkland courses. I actually think it's more difficult than TS North too. The weak 18th hole detracts, but TS South is worth a play IMO.

+1

TS South is indeed under-rated and a significant departure from the balance of  C & C's work.  Any serious student of golf course architecture should play both courses to see how C & C delivered contrasting designs on identifical (i.e., the same) sites.  If I recall correctly Redanman was a fan of the South, not to put words in his mouth.  I liked it a lot, though agree it's a notch below the North.

Mike

[Rob Rigg]

TSN is definitely a great example of what skilled architects can do with a flat site by using a "minimalist" design philosophy. The par 5 second hole is a perfect example of how an OB fence and 2 bunkers can make a hole with a fairway as wide as a runway supremely challenging for the ambitious golfer. I agree with Tom - as an everyday course it is quite enjoyable (although the "wow" factor kind of wanes with repeat plays based on feedback from friends who have visited and some of the guys at work - I don't disagree).

TSS is more of a "tournament" course. The routing has water hazards and the course seems to play a little more green and pure. There are trees and more bunkers giving it a "parkland" vibe. The South has quite a few good holes and is more averse to scoring than the North which often makes it the preferred challenge for "sticks".

Summer rates at Talking Stick are fantastic - $40ish per round! I think it's up to $100 now ($70 for residents) and gets up to $140 which is just brutal.

Other strong publics in the area that I have enjoyed are Southern Dunes about 45 mins southwest (my favorite - a Schmidt/Curley) and We Ko Pa Saguaro just past Fountain Hills (another C&C design).

[Dave Givnish]

Rob - Kierland was a flat site when they started too 

I played both TS courses a lot.  North was more interesting architecturally to me, but I enjoyed playing South quite a bit.  The bunkers on North are really well done and it could be a bitch to play when the winds kicked up - which was everyday there.

I saw the best cart girl incident on the South course though.  She had the cart parked right next to the curb on the cart path.  About 15' ahead was a ball washer and a tree that were about 6' apart.  Left of that was the lake.  I think that this is at #12 tee.  You can see where I'm going.  She hit the gas, hopped the curb, went between the ball washer and the tree, and went face first into the lake.  The Russian judge gave her a 10 for agility!

She left the property in shock (no physical injury) and the poor assistant pros had to wade into the water to get the product and the cash out before the tow truck got there.  It was a good thing it happened in the summer for them.

[Matthew Petersen]

Everyone here needs to play TS North.  Probably the only course I've really enjoyed playing at 7000+   ...

Should be noted, a par 70 at that.  

Probably too late for Mr Lynch to make his decision, but just to detail the basic differences:

The South course has a more "traditional" feel, with (non-native) shade trees and water hazards.  

The North course is more rustic, with natural vegetation.  A prototype minimalist style course.  Indeed, the way the bunkering is used to blend the turfed areas into the native surroundings is remarkably subtle.

While I prefer the North, the South is worth a play for sure.  Both courses are core routings and walkable and make an outstanding 35-hole day.  I only wish they would let the North be a little more rustic - less plush and more firm/fast.

TSN could be my perfect everyday course if not for the high season tourist fee structure.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

A lot of golfers wouldn't think much of North on a first play, but it's an excellent course for repeat plays. Just so many options and a lot of holes that reveal themselves slowly.

[Ted Cahill]

Just completed a 5 day visit to Scottsdale.  Played both TS courses and WeKoPa Saguaro.  I was very impressed with both courses at TS.  When you consider how flat and featureless this property is, my opinion of C/C actually has increased after this visit.  I would politiely disagree with those who claim the North is much better than the South.  I also found the label "parkland" for the South course to be wrong.  There may be more trees lining the fairways of TSS, however those fairways are nice and wide and this course never felt like the cramped parkland courses of my youth.  My only ding on the management of the course is that they don't offer pull carts to players.  Both courses are very walkable and the overuse of electric carts is dissapointing, considering the obvious priority the design placed on walkability.  As far as WeKoPa Saguaro- I wonder if there has ever been a course so hearalded that I was less impressed with.  If felt more like a typical AZ daily fee course than a C/C course.  I have to suspect that the maintence crew has allowed this course to "drift" into the usual AZ offering and not maintained the original design (I wonder if having the Cholla course next door- presumably the same maintenence crew- has led to "similar" upkeep styles and away from a C/C design)  I'm curious if anyone else has observed this.  TS is 6 years older, yet the bunkers and other features still feel very C/C- where WKP has faded.  I look forward to returning to TS in the future. 

[Matthew Rose]

I like the South very much.

It might be a bit more "conventional" (i.e more water, etc..) but I still found it to be a pleasure to play, and the greens were a joy to putt on.

[Steve Salmen]

I'm a fan of neither.  With gun to head, play the North.  Drive the hour to play Southern Dunes.

[Matthew Petersen]

So the question at Talking Stick is no longer "North or South?" (not that there was ever too much question). Now it's "O'ogham" (formerly the North) or "Piipaash" (formerly the South).


Courses renamed for local tribes, which is nice, but the names surely don't roll off the tongue.